Time for a REAL discussion.
- Thread starter Sicc_Wit_It
- Start date
I don't think you should take it so personally when someone points out racist ideas you hold, it not the same as saying YOU are a racist. I mean, anyone who grows up in this society as a "white" person will absorb some racist notions that they have to deeply analyze and question and purge from their brain/heart and unlearn. Nobodys perfect, especially at 17. At least you are thinking about social problems and trying to grapple with them, which is more than a lot of folks. Sorry if I offended you, but ignoring disagreements isn't going to change the world.
Economics mean very little to me when the US government, as well as Mexico's own government, has kept my people poor for so long. I do understand economics, but as I've told you before, they mean little to me in the grand scheme of history and the wrongs that have been done. I understand that the money sent back to Mexico is completely gone from the US flow of money. Yet, California's economy alone is the 6th largest I believe, or 7th? The US has enough money, look at the War on Terror if you want to know what is REALLY fucking up our economy.
Your turn.
Your turn.
Gladly.. listen before you go judging MY PEOPLE..
Know the real history.. THE AZTECS = 8 TRIBES ..ONE OF THEM BEING THE HOPI PEOPLES OF TODAY.. THE LAST TRIBE TO LEAVE ARE THE 'Mexica People..THEY MIGRATED SOUTH DUE TO THE DROUGHT.. FINALLY MAKING THEIR HOME IN Tenochtitlan.. [ http://www.laprensa-sandiego.org/archieve/april25-03/aztec.htm]
I can also tell you about the legends of Moctezuma's return amongst the Cherokee's and other Natives.. Mexicans are deemed indigenous so are the people of Central & South America & The indigenous populations of the Carribean. if they werent the Pow Wow's wouldnt have the Mexica dances as one of their shows.. or the indigenous communities of North America would deem this subject irrellevant to their history. These continents were open borders, it was free trade amongst the people, they all knew about eachother. It was no secret.
Oh and there's more to Indigenous people south of the border than 'Aztecs' Mayas and Inkas. My mother is one of them.. I could name many off the top of my head.
Mexicans have a right to be here.. just as you do! These are unhuman crimes perpetrated against what you deem 'illegals'.. its obvious that racism has never ceased to exist.. as long as its here we will never move forward as a country! We can learn from mistakes you know.. youve got kids without parents because they were taken away!! why?? because they came to this country with all very little that they have to succeed! Just like you and I. It's not so simple to wait 10 years for a visa.. you need business passes too.. how could you get one if you are in poverty?? Do you think they want to come here illegally? didnt think so.. How is wanting to put food on the table a crime? Please explain.
Have you really been to a rez before? It's not pretty.. my people dont even have clean tap water anymore! How about the conditions in Mexico through South America?? [oh.. what about Brazil?? ] Poverty too! These people arent criminals yet are treated like the scum of the earth to seek a better life in the 'land of opportunity'
You are dividing the Indigenous people who live right on the border.. cant even cross the fucking street to visit their family.It is also a slap in the face to every 'Immigrant' out there.
Know the real history.. THE AZTECS = 8 TRIBES ..ONE OF THEM BEING THE HOPI PEOPLES OF TODAY.. THE LAST TRIBE TO LEAVE ARE THE 'Mexica People..THEY MIGRATED SOUTH DUE TO THE DROUGHT.. FINALLY MAKING THEIR HOME IN Tenochtitlan.. [ http://www.laprensa-sandiego.org/archieve/april25-03/aztec.htm]
I can also tell you about the legends of Moctezuma's return amongst the Cherokee's and other Natives.. Mexicans are deemed indigenous so are the people of Central & South America & The indigenous populations of the Carribean. if they werent the Pow Wow's wouldnt have the Mexica dances as one of their shows.. or the indigenous communities of North America would deem this subject irrellevant to their history. These continents were open borders, it was free trade amongst the people, they all knew about eachother. It was no secret.
Oh and there's more to Indigenous people south of the border than 'Aztecs' Mayas and Inkas. My mother is one of them.. I could name many off the top of my head.
Mexicans have a right to be here.. just as you do! These are unhuman crimes perpetrated against what you deem 'illegals'.. its obvious that racism has never ceased to exist.. as long as its here we will never move forward as a country! We can learn from mistakes you know.. youve got kids without parents because they were taken away!! why?? because they came to this country with all very little that they have to succeed! Just like you and I. It's not so simple to wait 10 years for a visa.. you need business passes too.. how could you get one if you are in poverty?? Do you think they want to come here illegally? didnt think so.. How is wanting to put food on the table a crime? Please explain.
Have you really been to a rez before? It's not pretty.. my people dont even have clean tap water anymore! How about the conditions in Mexico through South America?? [oh.. what about Brazil?? ] Poverty too! These people arent criminals yet are treated like the scum of the earth to seek a better life in the 'land of opportunity'
You are dividing the Indigenous people who live right on the border.. cant even cross the fucking street to visit their family.It is also a slap in the face to every 'Immigrant' out there.
If the us government and Mexico have kept your people poor for so long, economics should mean a lot to you. Isn't your whole position economic equality and economic freedom for people of mexican heritage? Isn't that why you support illegal immigration?
And when you told me you didn't do a convincing job, but who am I to convince? No one, so it really doesn't matter outside of this board, but it does matter when you are trying to prove your point. If you are going to focus on the wrongs that have been done you also have to focus on the economic impact those wrongs had Mexicans. The two go hand in hand together don't you see that?
What does this have to do with anything? Where would Mexico's economy be if mexico itself stopped letting in over 40k people each year to do the work no one else wants to do? You think they don't do the same thing this country does? They do it, just on a smaller scale, and you don't really hear about it. So what you're basically saying is it is ok to let it happen because it wont hurt the economy. LOL! That like saying I should walk into the nearest Benz dealer and ride off in a Benz without paying for it because they just sold 500 Maybachs and won't miss the money from the cls500 I skirt off in. :ermm:
LOL! On paper. If China or Japan were to cash in their reserves, or the majority of oil dealers switched to the euro as a trading standard would you make the same claim? Would you still claim teh us has enough money?
Why should I look at the war on terror? The same can be said for our prison system, health care, education (underpaid teachers and not enough students graduating etc.) ALL are contributing factors to the economy being the way it is, but how many of these are contributing factors to the loss of RESOURCES we will experience in this country within the next 50 years? How many are responsible for the INCREASE in population that will utilize these limited resources?
And when you told me you didn't do a convincing job, but who am I to convince? No one, so it really doesn't matter outside of this board, but it does matter when you are trying to prove your point. If you are going to focus on the wrongs that have been done you also have to focus on the economic impact those wrongs had Mexicans. The two go hand in hand together don't you see that?
What does this have to do with anything? Where would Mexico's economy be if mexico itself stopped letting in over 40k people each year to do the work no one else wants to do? You think they don't do the same thing this country does? They do it, just on a smaller scale, and you don't really hear about it. So what you're basically saying is it is ok to let it happen because it wont hurt the economy. LOL! That like saying I should walk into the nearest Benz dealer and ride off in a Benz without paying for it because they just sold 500 Maybachs and won't miss the money from the cls500 I skirt off in. :ermm:
LOL! On paper. If China or Japan were to cash in their reserves, or the majority of oil dealers switched to the euro as a trading standard would you make the same claim? Would you still claim teh us has enough money?
Why should I look at the war on terror? The same can be said for our prison system, health care, education (underpaid teachers and not enough students graduating etc.) ALL are contributing factors to the economy being the way it is, but how many of these are contributing factors to the loss of RESOURCES we will experience in this country within the next 50 years? How many are responsible for the INCREASE in population that will utilize these limited resources?
My whole position isn't economic equality nor economic freedom for people of Mexican heritage. "Economic Freedom" is what NAFTA gave them, right? I dont support illegal immigration, but I do support people willing to work hard jobs in agriculture, among other things.
The wrong that has been done and continues to be done is that Mexico, much like so many other lame pussy Latin American countries, has a corrupt-US backed government that fucks it's citizens over just so a few CEO's can become filthy rich.
That Benz comparison is very stupid on your part. Do you not understand how Mexico's economy is completely controlled by the US? Just like most all other Latin American countries, through NAFTA and treaties of that nature. Mexico's economy produces several billionares and lots of millionares, so the economy doesn't look so bad. But, the reality is that most people are broke as fuck with hardly any opportunities to prosper and live well. You cannot compare the US's economy to Mexico's, you have to remember that there are terrible side affects of capitalism the way the US has done things up to this point, and countries like Mexico and it's people are prime examples of this.
The US has enough resources and money to do whatever the fuck it wants, and if you believe otherwise than that's on you.
$191 Billion! That's why you should look at the war on terror. And the bottom line is that I realize that there are limited resources, but I'll support anybody willing to make the sacrifice and come here to work, because I understand how difficult it is to live well in Mexico.
And we really don't need to have another one of these debates, we know where we stand and I don't think we're going to change eachother's minds. I am not going to sit here and say that you're point isn't logical and that you are incorrect, I simply don't care about the consequences of all illegal immigration going on. I realize that the work needs to be done in Mexico, but no one steps up to the plate. Until someone does, it's survival that matters most...
The wrong that has been done and continues to be done is that Mexico, much like so many other lame pussy Latin American countries, has a corrupt-US backed government that fucks it's citizens over just so a few CEO's can become filthy rich.
That Benz comparison is very stupid on your part. Do you not understand how Mexico's economy is completely controlled by the US? Just like most all other Latin American countries, through NAFTA and treaties of that nature. Mexico's economy produces several billionares and lots of millionares, so the economy doesn't look so bad. But, the reality is that most people are broke as fuck with hardly any opportunities to prosper and live well. You cannot compare the US's economy to Mexico's, you have to remember that there are terrible side affects of capitalism the way the US has done things up to this point, and countries like Mexico and it's people are prime examples of this.
The US has enough resources and money to do whatever the fuck it wants, and if you believe otherwise than that's on you.
$191 Billion! That's why you should look at the war on terror. And the bottom line is that I realize that there are limited resources, but I'll support anybody willing to make the sacrifice and come here to work, because I understand how difficult it is to live well in Mexico.
And we really don't need to have another one of these debates, we know where we stand and I don't think we're going to change eachother's minds. I am not going to sit here and say that you're point isn't logical and that you are incorrect, I simply don't care about the consequences of all illegal immigration going on. I realize that the work needs to be done in Mexico, but no one steps up to the plate. Until someone does, it's survival that matters most...
You are contradicting yourself.
So why not address the problem with Mexico? Why not address the double standards within the mexican community in america and in Mexico?
Your ENTIRE rant is stupid, and you haven't contributed anything remotely important, yet you don't see me openly pointing this out. You are suggesting/implying that it is OK for people to BREAK THE LAW and send funds BACK to Mexico because California and the country can take the loss. If that isn't stupidity, I don't know what is.
You've shown me time and time again that you don't understand economics. On one hand you are saying economics isn't that important, yet in a paragraph or two later you stress the importance of economics and how Mexico would experience economic freedom if it weren't for the united states. :dead:
Do you understand how Mexico's economy is NOT completely controlled by the united states? In fact, where is your proof to your claim? Post up stats and figures from a credible source explaining how the economy of Mexico is COMPLETELY controlled by the united states.
You complain about nafta, yet I don't see you saying anything remotely negative about the Security and Prosperity Partnership.
And according to you this economy is completely controlled by the united states government.
Why is it that Mexico allows over 40k people from ONE specific country alone to pick grapes, tomatoes, oranges etc? The SAME jobs you say people are too lazy to do here are the SAME jobs mexicans are too lazy to do in Mexico (which is why over 40k from this one specific country alone come to do the job.)
Yes, the reality is most people are broke as fuck, and maybe that wouldn't be a reality if Mexico didn't have a caste system based on european ideologies.
What are these terrible side effects you speak of? A terrible side effect is the Mexican governments REFUSAL to address the problem, and how in 50 years americas population will sky rocket while the resources pummel.
More proof you don't know ANYTHING about economics. Here it is you are claiming you know about economics, yet when I present you with two REALISTIC scenarios that can take place within the next 5 seconds, you come back with absolutely nothing.
But you just got finished saying the US has enough resources and money to do whatever the fuck it wants, so why is this $191 billion a problem?
If resources are limited now, and will become more limited in the future, for how LONG do you expect for these people to live WELL? :dead: x Mexicao & the united states.
Please give me an answer to that question.
EMPHASIS MINE. With that single sentence you have....nah forget it....:hurt:
Yet they step up to the plate in america, protest in america and blame america....
So why not address the problem with Mexico? Why not address the double standards within the mexican community in america and in Mexico?
Your ENTIRE rant is stupid, and you haven't contributed anything remotely important, yet you don't see me openly pointing this out. You are suggesting/implying that it is OK for people to BREAK THE LAW and send funds BACK to Mexico because California and the country can take the loss. If that isn't stupidity, I don't know what is.
You've shown me time and time again that you don't understand economics. On one hand you are saying economics isn't that important, yet in a paragraph or two later you stress the importance of economics and how Mexico would experience economic freedom if it weren't for the united states. :dead:
Do you understand how Mexico's economy is NOT completely controlled by the united states? In fact, where is your proof to your claim? Post up stats and figures from a credible source explaining how the economy of Mexico is COMPLETELY controlled by the united states.
You complain about nafta, yet I don't see you saying anything remotely negative about the Security and Prosperity Partnership.
And according to you this economy is completely controlled by the united states government.
Why is it that Mexico allows over 40k people from ONE specific country alone to pick grapes, tomatoes, oranges etc? The SAME jobs you say people are too lazy to do here are the SAME jobs mexicans are too lazy to do in Mexico (which is why over 40k from this one specific country alone come to do the job.)
Yes, the reality is most people are broke as fuck, and maybe that wouldn't be a reality if Mexico didn't have a caste system based on european ideologies.
What are these terrible side effects you speak of? A terrible side effect is the Mexican governments REFUSAL to address the problem, and how in 50 years americas population will sky rocket while the resources pummel.
More proof you don't know ANYTHING about economics. Here it is you are claiming you know about economics, yet when I present you with two REALISTIC scenarios that can take place within the next 5 seconds, you come back with absolutely nothing.
But you just got finished saying the US has enough resources and money to do whatever the fuck it wants, so why is this $191 billion a problem?
If resources are limited now, and will become more limited in the future, for how LONG do you expect for these people to live WELL? :dead: x Mexicao & the united states.
Please give me an answer to that question.
EMPHASIS MINE. With that single sentence you have....nah forget it....:hurt:
Yet they step up to the plate in america, protest in america and blame america....
dammn why is it that heresy says exactly what i said pretty much just in more words and in a more grown up way that no one calls him racist... thank yuo heresy for saying exactly what ive been saying... i think it is ridiculous though that im a racist and your not.... its very ignorant on some peoples part
First of all, you don't have much command presence. When I speak people usually listen, even if they don't agree with it they at least listen. Second of all, you are easily side tracked where as I know how to get straight to the point. I'm pretty much saying that if mexicans are now slaves in mexico, and currently working slave type jobs in america, what will happen 50 years from now when the resources are even more scare and the population has increased by 50 to 100 million? It took me less than two pages to get this point out. It took you over 20 pages, so no you are typing more words than I. LOL!
However, I understand where you are coming from, and we agree in certain areas, but my suggestion to you is that even though you may be considered a racist etc, you need to consider the fact that this is a very emotional situation and some of these people may have family who are "illegals". Try to understand where they are coming from because this is an emotional and prideful situation for them.
However, I understand where you are coming from, and we agree in certain areas, but my suggestion to you is that even though you may be considered a racist etc, you need to consider the fact that this is a very emotional situation and some of these people may have family who are "illegals". Try to understand where they are coming from because this is an emotional and prideful situation for them.
AGREE.
@ Portuguese Person:
You did NOT say the exact same things as HERESY is saying; similiar, yes, but not exact.
Your posts were made with ignorant, blatent disprespect, due to the fact you got upset with people ''bashing'' you and calling you a racist for your views; therefore, you responded with dumb comments, and THAT, my friend, is why I called you what I did.
I still stand by my opinion.
Have a nice day.
@ Portuguese Person:
You did NOT say the exact same things as HERESY is saying; similiar, yes, but not exact.
Your posts were made with ignorant, blatent disprespect, due to the fact you got upset with people ''bashing'' you and calling you a racist for your views; therefore, you responded with dumb comments, and THAT, my friend, is why I called you what I did.
I still stand by my opinion.
Have a nice day.
No, you didn't say the exact same things as him. He is a lot smarter than you, and the diction he uses allows him to say his point and not sound racist at all. I definitely cannot say the same for you.
And Heresy, I don't see anything wrong with people working hard to make a decent life. No country, government or laws are more important to me than that. As long as they come here to work for their money and not do anything else illegal besides their already illegal presence, then I don't have a problem with that. I understand why you and many others have a problem with that, but I have no problem at all with it.
And it is obvious that immigration has to change, but I don't believe taking the "throw them out" stance on the issue is the correct one. Please, everyone keep in mind that a lot of these "illegal" people have families here with children. There needs to be a guest worker type of program, there needs to be changes in NAFTA and the way Mexico's resources are exploited and don't actually serve the good of it's OWN people, and there needs to be a movement IN Mexico to get these changes done. Can we agree on those things pal?
And Heresy, I don't see anything wrong with people working hard to make a decent life. No country, government or laws are more important to me than that. As long as they come here to work for their money and not do anything else illegal besides their already illegal presence, then I don't have a problem with that. I understand why you and many others have a problem with that, but I have no problem at all with it.
And it is obvious that immigration has to change, but I don't believe taking the "throw them out" stance on the issue is the correct one. Please, everyone keep in mind that a lot of these "illegal" people have families here with children. There needs to be a guest worker type of program, there needs to be changes in NAFTA and the way Mexico's resources are exploited and don't actually serve the good of it's OWN people, and there needs to be a movement IN Mexico to get these changes done. Can we agree on those things pal?