Wait... who goes to hell?
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Separation from that which is absolute is the illusion that constitutes suffering. This illusion can endure for a very, very long time, I am sure, but never is it factual. Therefore no one is ever absolutely separated from the Absolute God (aka: eternal hell).
Destroying is another thing. If we are created, then being destroyed follows. If we are simply these temporal bodies, then our existence (as we know it in these forms) has no connection to an absolute, eternal God. Of course, the energy that makes up the body does have a connection with the absolute God. It is just the non-enduring form that doesn't. But this isn't even a question because Christianity, like many other religions, promotes an everlasting existence in some place or another.
Destroying is another thing. If we are created, then being destroyed follows. If we are simply these temporal bodies, then our existence (as we know it in these forms) has no connection to an absolute, eternal God. Of course, the energy that makes up the body does have a connection with the absolute God. It is just the non-enduring form that doesn't. But this isn't even a question because Christianity, like many other religions, promotes an everlasting existence in some place or another.
This does not require a Bible scholar. I am not asking for a Biblical answer here. I explained this.
You agree that sin means to presume as though separate from God.
Our presuming as though separate from God is "missing the mark" (the literal definition of "sin") because factually we are NOT separate from God. And, furthermore, if we were factually separate from God, then our presuming such would not be missing the mark since it would actually be the truth.
Does the above follow? If not, please show me where the fault is.
You agree that sin means to presume as though separate from God.
Our presuming as though separate from God is "missing the mark" (the literal definition of "sin") because factually we are NOT separate from God. And, furthermore, if we were factually separate from God, then our presuming such would not be missing the mark since it would actually be the truth.
Does the above follow? If not, please show me where the fault is.
I don't want to give you an opinion, rather something that would come from the Bible, but from what I think, you can't be separate from God in the sense he made you so you're forever a part of him. But when you sin, it's more of a Connection with him that you become Seperate. You cut yourself off from the Way, the Truth and the Light.
Sin CAUSES seperation from God or you can say seperation from God is the result of SIN. In the bible you will find MANY instances of people being CUT OFF or SEPERATED. When Yeshi tells you to DEPART from you you are SEPERATED. When Yeshi says to let the wheats and tares grow together until the time of SEPERATION it means exactly that.
Isaiah 59:2
WRONG! Judging from the context and manner of which the replies were made it is safe to say that the people saw another so-called contradiction. Coupled in with EDJ's responses and his remarks about you pointing out "flawed" beliefs it is safe to say that you made this thread in hopes of "bashing", and I'm sure that MEXCOM felt the same way (which is why he agreed with what I said.)
Bottom line is how you worded it and put it out there leaves much to be desired.
Circle talk.
This is coming from a person who does not adhere to the bible, has not read the bible, has no knowledge of biblical translations, has no knowledge/understanding of greek, hebrew or latin, and has no idea about canon, apocryphal or pseudepigraphical works. :dead:
It is useless to try and convert a follower of the way. I am not forcing my beliefs on ANYONE here, so I would appreciate it if you would do the same.
No.
LMAO! This deserves a chuckle...
Isaiah 59:2
WRONG! Judging from the context and manner of which the replies were made it is safe to say that the people saw another so-called contradiction. Coupled in with EDJ's responses and his remarks about you pointing out "flawed" beliefs it is safe to say that you made this thread in hopes of "bashing", and I'm sure that MEXCOM felt the same way (which is why he agreed with what I said.)
Bottom line is how you worded it and put it out there leaves much to be desired.
Circle talk.
This is coming from a person who does not adhere to the bible, has not read the bible, has no knowledge of biblical translations, has no knowledge/understanding of greek, hebrew or latin, and has no idea about canon, apocryphal or pseudepigraphical works. :dead:
It is useless to try and convert a follower of the way. I am not forcing my beliefs on ANYONE here, so I would appreciate it if you would do the same.
No.
LMAO! This deserves a chuckle...
Have you considered the possibility that you misunderstand the nature of such separation? I have shown two lines of logic, both based on premises that Christians agree with.
I already stated my intent. You can whine about this all day. Or, you can stop. I am not dictating what you do.
How is this circle talk?
Perhaps you should be less concerned with the person, and more concerned with the logic. Ad hominems aren't going to earn you points.
This is actually coming from a premise accepted by all Christians. Address it on that basis; not who has presented the facts.
These are not my beliefs. It is logic from a premise you accept. Beliefs would be like, "I believe in an invisible pink unicorn". That's a belief. I am not talking about what I believe, nor am I presenting opinions.
Then you're certainly wasting your time.
An "I concede defeat" chuckle, perhaps?
I already stated my intent. You can whine about this all day. Or, you can stop. I am not dictating what you do.
How is this circle talk?
Perhaps you should be less concerned with the person, and more concerned with the logic. Ad hominems aren't going to earn you points.
This is actually coming from a premise accepted by all Christians. Address it on that basis; not who has presented the facts.
HERESY said:
It is useless to try and convert a follower of the way. I am not forcing my beliefs on ANYONE here, so I would appreciate it if you would do the same.
Then you're certainly wasting your time.
An "I concede defeat" chuckle, perhaps?
You have shown two lines of logic that some christians tend to agree with. Also, I have an understanding of seperation and how it was used in the new and old testament, so no I have no misunderstanding.
You are the one whining about it. I gave you directions on how to find the answer, another member supported my suggestion, and one other member went as far as to link to a concordance.
Explaining how it is circle talk will lead to more circle talk.
There is no logic to your statement. EVERYTHING I said about you IS true and this is a FACT. With that being said, how can you logically tell me "Whatever you have read in the Bible, it has been mistranslated and/or misinterpreted", when you have NO knowledge of what you suggest has been mistranslated or misinterpreted? Also, if it were an ad hominem I would bring up IRRELEVANT facts, but the truth is you have NO GROUNDS to suggest something has been misinterpreted or mistranslated because you know nothing about it, so my statements pertaining to you ARE relevant and no ad hominem has occured.
If you believe whatever I have read has been mistranslated or misinterpreted I ask that you give me grounds for your beliefs. You made the claim, and I want to know if your claim is validated by your own reserach or knowledge of what you claim is mistranslated or misinterpreted.
When you realize that "christians" have DIFFERENT beliefs/dogma/doctrine according to the sects you'll be better suited for discussing all of this. Not all christians believe in hell, some have different views on spirit and soul and some even have a different view on the concept of Yeshi (some say he was NOT eternal.) One CANNOT discuss this topic in depth with a "genral" view of christianity because it is not applicable.
No, you are trying to force your beliefs off on me. When you make statements such as "There is a few thousand years of brainwashing here. I understand that it is hard to let go. ", you are stating what you believe. If you did not believe there is a few thousand years of brainwashing here would you have said it? No. If it were not your opinion would you have said it? No.
Again, stop trying to force your views off on people.
Which is why I didn't answer you in the first place. Normally I would have, but the way you presented the question was faulty and what you've said since is faulty.
No, a "this guy 916 is typing cosmic crapola" chuckle.
You are the one whining about it. I gave you directions on how to find the answer, another member supported my suggestion, and one other member went as far as to link to a concordance.
Explaining how it is circle talk will lead to more circle talk.
There is no logic to your statement. EVERYTHING I said about you IS true and this is a FACT. With that being said, how can you logically tell me "Whatever you have read in the Bible, it has been mistranslated and/or misinterpreted", when you have NO knowledge of what you suggest has been mistranslated or misinterpreted? Also, if it were an ad hominem I would bring up IRRELEVANT facts, but the truth is you have NO GROUNDS to suggest something has been misinterpreted or mistranslated because you know nothing about it, so my statements pertaining to you ARE relevant and no ad hominem has occured.
If you believe whatever I have read has been mistranslated or misinterpreted I ask that you give me grounds for your beliefs. You made the claim, and I want to know if your claim is validated by your own reserach or knowledge of what you claim is mistranslated or misinterpreted.
When you realize that "christians" have DIFFERENT beliefs/dogma/doctrine according to the sects you'll be better suited for discussing all of this. Not all christians believe in hell, some have different views on spirit and soul and some even have a different view on the concept of Yeshi (some say he was NOT eternal.) One CANNOT discuss this topic in depth with a "genral" view of christianity because it is not applicable.
No, you are trying to force your beliefs off on me. When you make statements such as "There is a few thousand years of brainwashing here. I understand that it is hard to let go. ", you are stating what you believe. If you did not believe there is a few thousand years of brainwashing here would you have said it? No. If it were not your opinion would you have said it? No.
Again, stop trying to force your views off on people.
Which is why I didn't answer you in the first place. Normally I would have, but the way you presented the question was faulty and what you've said since is faulty.
No, a "this guy 916 is typing cosmic crapola" chuckle.
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Logic is logic. You can agree or disagree. It is what it is, mathematical. I never said anything about Christians accepting the lines of logic, just the premises upon which the logic follows. Most Christians (in my experience) do not accept logic, even if it is based on a premise that they accept. That is the problem. I chose not to assume that you would do the same, but apparently you are no different.
I don't think you understand the purpose of an internet forum. It is for discussion. If I wanted someone to give me a link to a website then I'd just send a PM asking them. I made this thread to incite discussion. Everyone has the opportunity to present their understanding. Not only was I given a link, but the link I was given did not itself answer my question. Perhaps if I learned Hebrew and Greek and studied the original text of the books of the Bible, then maybe I would have a better understanding. Of course, I didn't make this thread for someone to tell me to do that. I made it so people can present their understanding. You know, actually contribute to a conversation? If I decide to do my own in depth study, it will have nothing to do with making a thread on an internet forum.
You've jumped to this conclusion, certainly because you are UNABLE to explain how it is circle talk. Since you can't explain, my point stands as is.
No. It is "circle talk". And we are simply to accept that as fact by the mystic divine words of Heresy. No need for explanation because that would lead to more circle talk. Maybe it is beyond explanation. It just IS! *everyone gasps in awe*
I wouldn't be surprised if you were a Buddhist in your previous life.
Especially since you capitalized the words "is" and "fact".
Anyway, if you didn't know, whether what you said is true or not is irrelevant. It is still an ad hominem. If it was fact that I got beat up by a 12 year old girl, that still doesn't have anything to do with this discussion. So for you to start going off about me getting beaten up by a 12 year old girl wouldn't be exempt from being an ad hominem on the basis that it is true.
One of the axioms I am accepting herein is that the Bible is valid. Therefore, when I see an apparent contradiction within Biblical teaching, I accept that it must be a case of mistranslation and/or misinterpretation. I do this instead of thinking it to be completely wrong and throwing it out entirely. I have that kind of faith. I DO NOT have the kind of faith where I am willing to accept an internal contradiction. Apparently you do have this kind of faith. You simply accept what the Bible says, no questions asked. Even if it contradicts itself, the unicorn is pink and invisible at the same time for you. I cannot accept this. It simply does not compute. Therefore I say that there is a mistranslation and/or misinterpretation in the text of the Bible. I do not jump to the conclusion that the Bible is therefore entirely bogus. I give the benefit of the doubt.
Your ad hominems were irrelevant facts. My statement about mistranslation and misinterpretation is based on the logic that an eternal hell cannot exist as well as my giving the Bible the benefit of the doubt. Therefore, you stating what I don't know about whatever verse or verses in the Bible is meaningless. My position is not dependent on such a thing. If the verses maintain a contradiction within the teachings of Christianity, then that means we have misunderstood the verses.
I explained the grounds above.
I am not talking about any conclusions formed by any Christian sects. I am talking about premises we all accept. For example, that an absolute God exists. People who don't believe in the existence of God tend to not identify themselves as Christians. But you know, I haven't done a full worldwide study. Maybe there is someone like that out there. I feel pretty safe with this generalization though.
Oh, hahaha... You don't like the word "brainwashing". That's all. Fine. Whatever. This isn't the main point. I was stating that I understand why people have a difficult time letting certain things go because people have been indoctrinated for thousands of years. Though this is not the issue of debate. I see how you avoid the points that you know you are unable to answer and attack side statements instead. You don't have to believe that the Judeo-Christian teachings have been indoctrinating people for thousands of years. Whatever. Just address the main point concerning the logical impossibility of eternal hell. That is what we are discussing.
In what way did I force? I made one statement to that effect. It's done. Take it or leave it. No force...
Back to the issue.
Faulty as far as what goes? My concern deals with the fault of internal inconsistency regarding an absolute God and an eternal hell. This is called logic. Logic is applied to a premise. In this case, the premise is the existence of an absolute God. We both accept this premise. If you can show how my conclusion is faulty by dint of reason proceeding from this premise, then this whole debate will be finished immediately.
There is nothing "cosmic" here. Unless "cosmic" means "logic".
To refresh my points, (since we have gone way off track) here are my two arguments concerning an eternal hell:
1) Sin (specifically the act of sinning) means to presume as though separate from God. If we were factually separate from God, then presuming as if separate from God would not be sinful (i.e. would not "miss the mark") since it would actually be us living in our constitutional position. Therefore, no one is factually separate from God. Furthermore, eternal hell (absolute separation from God) does not exist.
2) God is absolute truth. Absolute truth is one. Hell means separation from God. 'God' and 'separation from God' cannot both be absolute since the absolute is one. Therefore no eternal hell (absolute separation from God) can exist.
I don't think you understand the purpose of an internet forum. It is for discussion. If I wanted someone to give me a link to a website then I'd just send a PM asking them. I made this thread to incite discussion. Everyone has the opportunity to present their understanding. Not only was I given a link, but the link I was given did not itself answer my question. Perhaps if I learned Hebrew and Greek and studied the original text of the books of the Bible, then maybe I would have a better understanding. Of course, I didn't make this thread for someone to tell me to do that. I made it so people can present their understanding. You know, actually contribute to a conversation? If I decide to do my own in depth study, it will have nothing to do with making a thread on an internet forum.
You've jumped to this conclusion, certainly because you are UNABLE to explain how it is circle talk. Since you can't explain, my point stands as is.
No. It is "circle talk". And we are simply to accept that as fact by the mystic divine words of Heresy. No need for explanation because that would lead to more circle talk. Maybe it is beyond explanation. It just IS! *everyone gasps in awe*
I wouldn't be surprised if you were a Buddhist in your previous life.
Especially since you capitalized the words "is" and "fact".
Anyway, if you didn't know, whether what you said is true or not is irrelevant. It is still an ad hominem. If it was fact that I got beat up by a 12 year old girl, that still doesn't have anything to do with this discussion. So for you to start going off about me getting beaten up by a 12 year old girl wouldn't be exempt from being an ad hominem on the basis that it is true.
One of the axioms I am accepting herein is that the Bible is valid. Therefore, when I see an apparent contradiction within Biblical teaching, I accept that it must be a case of mistranslation and/or misinterpretation. I do this instead of thinking it to be completely wrong and throwing it out entirely. I have that kind of faith. I DO NOT have the kind of faith where I am willing to accept an internal contradiction. Apparently you do have this kind of faith. You simply accept what the Bible says, no questions asked. Even if it contradicts itself, the unicorn is pink and invisible at the same time for you. I cannot accept this. It simply does not compute. Therefore I say that there is a mistranslation and/or misinterpretation in the text of the Bible. I do not jump to the conclusion that the Bible is therefore entirely bogus. I give the benefit of the doubt.
Your ad hominems were irrelevant facts. My statement about mistranslation and misinterpretation is based on the logic that an eternal hell cannot exist as well as my giving the Bible the benefit of the doubt. Therefore, you stating what I don't know about whatever verse or verses in the Bible is meaningless. My position is not dependent on such a thing. If the verses maintain a contradiction within the teachings of Christianity, then that means we have misunderstood the verses.
I explained the grounds above.
I am not talking about any conclusions formed by any Christian sects. I am talking about premises we all accept. For example, that an absolute God exists. People who don't believe in the existence of God tend to not identify themselves as Christians. But you know, I haven't done a full worldwide study. Maybe there is someone like that out there. I feel pretty safe with this generalization though.
Oh, hahaha... You don't like the word "brainwashing". That's all. Fine. Whatever. This isn't the main point. I was stating that I understand why people have a difficult time letting certain things go because people have been indoctrinated for thousands of years. Though this is not the issue of debate. I see how you avoid the points that you know you are unable to answer and attack side statements instead. You don't have to believe that the Judeo-Christian teachings have been indoctrinating people for thousands of years. Whatever. Just address the main point concerning the logical impossibility of eternal hell. That is what we are discussing.
In what way did I force? I made one statement to that effect. It's done. Take it or leave it. No force...
Back to the issue.
Faulty as far as what goes? My concern deals with the fault of internal inconsistency regarding an absolute God and an eternal hell. This is called logic. Logic is applied to a premise. In this case, the premise is the existence of an absolute God. We both accept this premise. If you can show how my conclusion is faulty by dint of reason proceeding from this premise, then this whole debate will be finished immediately.
There is nothing "cosmic" here. Unless "cosmic" means "logic".
To refresh my points, (since we have gone way off track) here are my two arguments concerning an eternal hell:
1) Sin (specifically the act of sinning) means to presume as though separate from God. If we were factually separate from God, then presuming as if separate from God would not be sinful (i.e. would not "miss the mark") since it would actually be us living in our constitutional position. Therefore, no one is factually separate from God. Furthermore, eternal hell (absolute separation from God) does not exist.
2) God is absolute truth. Absolute truth is one. Hell means separation from God. 'God' and 'separation from God' cannot both be absolute since the absolute is one. Therefore no eternal hell (absolute separation from God) can exist.