peyton manning is the biggest choke artist in the history of sports
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Nah, he's saying Ben has been more clutch and I agree. What I'm saying is Ben's defense has always been the bigger reason for their success. He refuses to admit that if Peyton had a better defense, like Ben and Brady did, he'd have more SB rings and this whole "choke artists" nonsense would be out the window. There are many variables that people want to take into account when the guy is successful, like the year they won the Super Bowl, but none are taken into account when he loses.
Once again your missing the point and living in fantasy land again with well if Manning had a defense like so and so... Blah blah blah!!!
I never thought you would sink to the mentality of a loser with that Ref shit from Super Bowl XL... Even seaChicken fans are starting to see the light and realize how pathetic they sounded 4-5 years later, GBR!!!
I never thought you would sink to the mentality of a loser with that Ref shit from Super Bowl XL... Even seaChicken fans are starting to see the light and realize how pathetic they sounded 4-5 years later, GBR!!!
And you continue to stray from reality, trying to blame Manning for something that wasn't even his fault. He fucked up after the fact because he was coming from behind due to the real reasons they lost the Super Bowl: the defense and special teams.
It's obvious neither of us will see the other's point. Let's end it now.
First of all, I don't understand all your internet lingo so I don't know what the fuck "GBR" means.
Second, the mentality of a loser? Please. At the time I was on the Steelers' side because I was blinded by the fact that I WANTED Pitt to win. Go back and check the threads on this very forum for the evidence.. But over time, after seeing it more and more and acknowledging the FACTS, I saw the light and admitted the Seahawks got screwed - you can check the threads for the evidence of that as well. I was saying the win was clean, but then those damn facts you speak of told me I was wrong. Damn those facts!
LOL @ you trying to find a response to the mention of that scandal. Mentality of a loser.. Yeah, that's what opened my eyes.
It's obvious neither of us will see the other's point. Let's end it now.
First of all, I don't understand all your internet lingo so I don't know what the fuck "GBR" means.
Second, the mentality of a loser? Please. At the time I was on the Steelers' side because I was blinded by the fact that I WANTED Pitt to win. Go back and check the threads on this very forum for the evidence.. But over time, after seeing it more and more and acknowledging the FACTS, I saw the light and admitted the Seahawks got screwed - you can check the threads for the evidence of that as well. I was saying the win was clean, but then those damn facts you speak of told me I was wrong. Damn those facts!
LOL @ you trying to find a response to the mention of that scandal. Mentality of a loser.. Yeah, that's what opened my eyes.
It's not internet Lingo...
Believe me I have watched that Super Bowl several times and there wasn't as many bad calls as you all say there were! Pittsburgh got screwed on calls too! What about the bullshit pass interference call on Heath Miller that killed a drive? Or the holding the seaChickens O-Line got away with other times not called??? I never hear y'all mention that... Then again you don't hear The Steelers whining about the calls, because instead of whining they played through it! Even Hasselback admitted after the game he and his teamates focused too much on that non sense instead of playing ball. The shit birds shot themselves in the foot too many times and had horrible clock management on top of that!
Manning had a chance with plenty of time and only down by 7 to bring his team back. What did he do??? Choked and threw a INT!!! You can't run away from this fact! You really look stupid right now! Mostly everyone I talk to say Manning choked on that play... On the other hand, Roethlisberger in the Super Bowl before had less than two minutes to put his team in FG range to tie the game to send it to overtime. What happened though??? No he didn't choke, but led a Super Bowl winning drive that will be remembered forever in Super Bowl history!
Believe me I have watched that Super Bowl several times and there wasn't as many bad calls as you all say there were! Pittsburgh got screwed on calls too! What about the bullshit pass interference call on Heath Miller that killed a drive? Or the holding the seaChickens O-Line got away with other times not called??? I never hear y'all mention that... Then again you don't hear The Steelers whining about the calls, because instead of whining they played through it! Even Hasselback admitted after the game he and his teamates focused too much on that non sense instead of playing ball. The shit birds shot themselves in the foot too many times and had horrible clock management on top of that!
Manning had a chance with plenty of time and only down by 7 to bring his team back. What did he do??? Choked and threw a INT!!! You can't run away from this fact! You really look stupid right now! Mostly everyone I talk to say Manning choked on that play... On the other hand, Roethlisberger in the Super Bowl before had less than two minutes to put his team in FG range to tie the game to send it to overtime. What happened though??? No he didn't choke, but led a Super Bowl winning drive that will be remembered forever in Super Bowl history!
Hey, this thread is about Peyton Manning, not about how the refs helped the stealers.
The following is a list of the most oft-criticized calls that went against the Seahawks:
First Quarter, 2:08 left, score tied 0-0: Seattle quarterback Matt Hasselbeck threw a 16-yard pass that wide receiver Darrell Jackson caught in the end zone, but the play was called back on an offensive pass interference call. Back Judge Bob Waggoner flagged Jackson for pushing off Steelers safety Chris Hope. Seattle had to settle for a Josh Brown field goal. Critics claimed both Jackson and the defensive player were jostling for position and that officials should not have flagged either player. Michael Smith of ESPN wrote that "Jackson extended his arm, yes, but both players were fighting for position, and he didn't create any separation by doing so."
Second Quarter, 2:00 left, Seahawks lead 3-0: On third down from the Seattle one-yard line, Pittsburgh quarterback Ben Roethlisberger took the snap, faked a handoff, and dove toward the left side of a pile along the goal-line before being hit by Seahawks linebacker D.D. Lewis. He then extended his arm that was holding the ball to the goal line, though it is unclear as to whether the extension was before or after he was officially down. After first raising one hand (as if to indicate that the quarterback was down), head linesman Mark Hittner raised a second arm to signal a touchdown. The play stood after review, to the considerable ire of Seahawks coach Mike Holmgren, who berated Leavy on the way to the locker room following the first half. The play was hotly debated in the media between those who thought the play should have resulted in a fourth-down-and-inches situation and those who thought the ball crossed the goal line. Roethlisberger appeared on the The Late Show with David Letterman the day after the game and told the host that, immediately after the play, he had told Cowher, "I don’t think I got in," but that the team was "ready to go for it on fourth down anyway." He later explained that he was referring to his initial impression only, and believes "the ball crossed the plane."
Fourth Quarter, 12:35 left, Steelers lead 14-10: Hasselbeck completed an 18-yard pass to tight end Jerramy Stevens at the Steelers 1-yard line. The play was nullified by a penalty against Seattle right tackle Sean Locklear for holding Pittsburgh linebacker Clark Haggans. Color commentator John Madden challenged the call, but others argued that, since NFL rules prohibit the encircling of a defender with hands or arms (i.e., "hooking") and since Locklear did appear briefly to have an arm around Haggans’ neck, the call was correct and not unusual.
Fourth Quarter, 10:54 left, Steelers lead 14-10: Three plays after the nullified pass to Stevens, Hasselbeck threw an interception to Pittsburgh cornerback Ike Taylor, who returned the ball 24 yards. A 15-yard personal foul was whistled against Hasselbeck for a "low block," advancing the Steelers to their own 44-yard line. During the American television broadcast, commentator Al Michaels said, "We think this was a bad call," suggesting that Hasselbeck was not blocking another Pittsburgh player but was instead making a low tackle on a ball carrier, which is legal. Mike Pereira, the Director of Officiating for the NFL, has said that "the call was not correct" and "should not have been made."
Fourth Quarter, 4:45 left, Steelers lead 21-10: With the Steelers' hoping to convert a first down on third-and-six in order to take more time off the clock, Roethlisberger was forced to call a timeout when Pittsburgh had difficulty getting a play off as the play clock ran down. The Steelers were awarded a timeout, but some contended that the play clock hit zero seconds before Roethlisberger called for a timeout, which would have constituted a delay-of-game and resulted in a five-yard penalty against Pittsburgh.
Calls against the Steelers
Although the negative media reaction against the officials was largely due to calls that did not go the Seahawks way, others suggested that there were calls that didn't go the Steelers' way. Gregg Easterbrook of NFL.com wrote:
"Four of the six big officiating decisions went against Seattle. Does this mean a pro-Steelers bias, as some in the sports yak world are saying, or perhaps a slap at Mike Holmgren by the officiating guild? ... The two decisions that favored the Hawks were the fourth-quarter replay reversal that gave possession, initially awarded to Pittsburgh, back to Seattle; and the no-call of a block in the back by Seattle during Kelly Herndon's record interception return. Of the four big decisions that favored the Steelers, two seemed correct to me."
Pittsburgh was not called for a single penalty in the second half while Seattle had three, including two of the disputed calls mentioned above.
The following is a list of the most oft-criticized calls that went against the Seahawks:
First Quarter, 2:08 left, score tied 0-0: Seattle quarterback Matt Hasselbeck threw a 16-yard pass that wide receiver Darrell Jackson caught in the end zone, but the play was called back on an offensive pass interference call. Back Judge Bob Waggoner flagged Jackson for pushing off Steelers safety Chris Hope. Seattle had to settle for a Josh Brown field goal. Critics claimed both Jackson and the defensive player were jostling for position and that officials should not have flagged either player. Michael Smith of ESPN wrote that "Jackson extended his arm, yes, but both players were fighting for position, and he didn't create any separation by doing so."
Second Quarter, 2:00 left, Seahawks lead 3-0: On third down from the Seattle one-yard line, Pittsburgh quarterback Ben Roethlisberger took the snap, faked a handoff, and dove toward the left side of a pile along the goal-line before being hit by Seahawks linebacker D.D. Lewis. He then extended his arm that was holding the ball to the goal line, though it is unclear as to whether the extension was before or after he was officially down. After first raising one hand (as if to indicate that the quarterback was down), head linesman Mark Hittner raised a second arm to signal a touchdown. The play stood after review, to the considerable ire of Seahawks coach Mike Holmgren, who berated Leavy on the way to the locker room following the first half. The play was hotly debated in the media between those who thought the play should have resulted in a fourth-down-and-inches situation and those who thought the ball crossed the goal line. Roethlisberger appeared on the The Late Show with David Letterman the day after the game and told the host that, immediately after the play, he had told Cowher, "I don’t think I got in," but that the team was "ready to go for it on fourth down anyway." He later explained that he was referring to his initial impression only, and believes "the ball crossed the plane."
Fourth Quarter, 12:35 left, Steelers lead 14-10: Hasselbeck completed an 18-yard pass to tight end Jerramy Stevens at the Steelers 1-yard line. The play was nullified by a penalty against Seattle right tackle Sean Locklear for holding Pittsburgh linebacker Clark Haggans. Color commentator John Madden challenged the call, but others argued that, since NFL rules prohibit the encircling of a defender with hands or arms (i.e., "hooking") and since Locklear did appear briefly to have an arm around Haggans’ neck, the call was correct and not unusual.
Fourth Quarter, 10:54 left, Steelers lead 14-10: Three plays after the nullified pass to Stevens, Hasselbeck threw an interception to Pittsburgh cornerback Ike Taylor, who returned the ball 24 yards. A 15-yard personal foul was whistled against Hasselbeck for a "low block," advancing the Steelers to their own 44-yard line. During the American television broadcast, commentator Al Michaels said, "We think this was a bad call," suggesting that Hasselbeck was not blocking another Pittsburgh player but was instead making a low tackle on a ball carrier, which is legal. Mike Pereira, the Director of Officiating for the NFL, has said that "the call was not correct" and "should not have been made."
Fourth Quarter, 4:45 left, Steelers lead 21-10: With the Steelers' hoping to convert a first down on third-and-six in order to take more time off the clock, Roethlisberger was forced to call a timeout when Pittsburgh had difficulty getting a play off as the play clock ran down. The Steelers were awarded a timeout, but some contended that the play clock hit zero seconds before Roethlisberger called for a timeout, which would have constituted a delay-of-game and resulted in a five-yard penalty against Pittsburgh.
Calls against the Steelers
Although the negative media reaction against the officials was largely due to calls that did not go the Seahawks way, others suggested that there were calls that didn't go the Steelers' way. Gregg Easterbrook of NFL.com wrote:
"Four of the six big officiating decisions went against Seattle. Does this mean a pro-Steelers bias, as some in the sports yak world are saying, or perhaps a slap at Mike Holmgren by the officiating guild? ... The two decisions that favored the Hawks were the fourth-quarter replay reversal that gave possession, initially awarded to Pittsburgh, back to Seattle; and the no-call of a block in the back by Seattle during Kelly Herndon's record interception return. Of the four big decisions that favored the Steelers, two seemed correct to me."
Pittsburgh was not called for a single penalty in the second half while Seattle had three, including two of the disputed calls mentioned above.
Huh? Big Ben came through in last years SuperBowl. This year Peyton had the opportunity to do the same but threw an INT. Great play by Porter but Peyton still threw the INT when it counted. Do I think Peyton Manning choked? No, because it was just one play. But to say Big Ben is not on Peyton's level is crazy. Big Ben has a better playoff record and SuperBowl record so we could say Peyton is not in Ben's level.
Savage you are really reaching if you believe all that shit you copy and pasted above! The only bad call that was clear was the "Low Block" called on HasselPECK after the INT in the 4th Qtr. Also, Seattle should have been called for Holding other times, but were not! I was about time they called it when it was already in the 4th Qtr.
On the rest of the so called conspiracy penalties and/or plays there is clear visual evidence to support them! Also Pittsburgh wasn't called for a penalty in the second half, because they didn't commit any... LMFAO! The shitbirds didn't capitalize on their opportunities and Pittsburgh did! That is the difference...
On the rest of the so called conspiracy penalties and/or plays there is clear visual evidence to support them! Also Pittsburgh wasn't called for a penalty in the second half, because they didn't commit any... LMFAO! The shitbirds didn't capitalize on their opportunities and Pittsburgh did! That is the difference...
I don't think Big Ben is a better QB than Peyton Manning (right now), but I also don't think its that ridiculous to make the argument. In Manning's first 5 seasons, he had 0 Super Bowl wins, 0 MVPs, had a 3-13 record his first season. In Roethlisberger's first 5 seasons, he had 2 Superbowl wins, Rookie of the Year, a 15-1 record his first season (15-0 in games he played), and the winningest QB record in the NFL. And say what you want about defenses, but Tommy Maddox didn't get it done with the same defense Big Ben had.
It is a scary thought that Manning didn't really become a superstar until his sixth season. Entering his sixth season, Roethlisberger has a huge advantage as far as adding to his already sick resume.
I say wait until Manning and Roethlisberger retire and then see how they stack up against each other. Manning has more TDs, yards, MVPs, and pretty much calls all the plays. Roethlisberger in his first 5 years set the Steelers records for accuracy in a season, TDs in a season, yards in a season, etc.
Manning is GOAT material, but Big Ben has some promise. He just needs to avoid those Super Bowl hangovers.
It is a scary thought that Manning didn't really become a superstar until his sixth season. Entering his sixth season, Roethlisberger has a huge advantage as far as adding to his already sick resume.
I say wait until Manning and Roethlisberger retire and then see how they stack up against each other. Manning has more TDs, yards, MVPs, and pretty much calls all the plays. Roethlisberger in his first 5 years set the Steelers records for accuracy in a season, TDs in a season, yards in a season, etc.
Manning is GOAT material, but Big Ben has some promise. He just needs to avoid those Super Bowl hangovers.
well said, best point you made was avoiding the Super Bowl hangovers, yes Peyton has only won the big one once but gets his team to at least the 2nd round of the playoffs damn near every year. Thing is some teams are just better all around and that was what Peyton had to deal with facing the Patriots all them years in the playoffs. I do think Ben inherited a better team however winning the superbowl twice already speaks for itself.
I hear ya on inheriting a team, but like I said, Maddox didn't get it done with the same team. I think its a little bit unfair to say that a player isn't any good because the rest of his team is good. You need to be firing on all cylinders to make the playoffs. Bradshaw, Montana, Brady, Elway, Young, Aikman, Favre, Manning, Roethlisber, etc. all had some fucking great players on offense and defense around them. I think its a copout. Some very good QBs will never be remembered because they were on bad teams. Some average QBs will get some hype because a good team carried them. But making the argument that Roethlisberger is in Trent Dilfer world is more ridiculous than making the argument that he's in Peyton Manning world. Yeah he had a good D around him, but that can't really be a knock against him. He came in and did the goddamn thing, and he has all the accolades to prove it.
I will give Ben a pass on the first Super Bowl hangover cuz of the Hyabusa. The second Super Bowl hangover was actually statistically his best season. I think it had more to do with the defense/Polamalu.
And Ben is THE reason that the Steelers beat Manning to get to their first Super Bowl.
But like I said, I still think Manning is a better player right now.
I will give Ben a pass on the first Super Bowl hangover cuz of the Hyabusa. The second Super Bowl hangover was actually statistically his best season. I think it had more to do with the defense/Polamalu.
And Ben is THE reason that the Steelers beat Manning to get to their first Super Bowl.
But like I said, I still think Manning is a better player right now.
I know you're as biased as they can get, but c'mon. You can't seriously sit there and watch the game over and tell me those weren't all bad calls. StEAlers were obviously favored in the game by the fans, media and refs. You take away those bad calls and/or the Rotlessburger TD, the Hawks would have won the game.
- Darrell Jackson was called for offensive pass interference for pushing off Chris Hope on what would have been a 16-yard touchdown from Matt Hasselbeck. The push was weak. Could have gone either way. What got me was the ref was watching Jackson, presumably to make sure he had the catch. Then he looked over at the defensive back who was calling for pass interference. Only then did the referee pull the flag out. He should have called it before the catch when the presumable interference took place.
- The next very questionable call was the good return by Peter Warrick which would have set them up in scoring range, but no, the refs called holding. On replay, no clear sign of holding though there was no argument by the Seattle player called for the hold.
- Ben Roethlisberger’s touchdown he may have gotten in. As you see in the photo it doesn’t look like he crossed the white line. If we’re sitting at home and can’t tell on the super slow motion replay whether the ball crossed the line, then I don’t know how the referee could see it in full speed. The side judge seemed to have his arm up in the air to call it 4th down after the dive but then he sees Ben lying in the end zone with the ball. So he calls it a touchdown.
- A phantom holding call which would have given them the ball at the 1 yard line for the go-ahead score early in the 4th quarter. Madden felt clearly he saw no holding. Heard on the radio that all the ESPN analysts watching the game together felt like no hold there also. Next play, Pitt is clearly offsides with no call but a sack instead. Hasselbeck throws an INT on the same drive.
- The tackle by Hasselbeck on the interception should have never been made. Ridiculous. They called him for a tackle below the knees. If he were hitting the lead blocker below the knees would that have been a penalty. But he was making a tackle so he can go low. How did they miss that? Gave the Steelers an extra 15 yards. Steelers score on the Randel El touchdown pass on that drive.
- What seemed like a pretty clear horse collar tackle by Joey Porter on Shaun Alexander. If a horse collar tackle is bringing down a player by the collar of their jersey/shoulder pads from behind then that was as clear as I could see. Why create that penalty if you’re not going to call it?
- Finally, on 3rd down time clock shows 00, Ben looks to the ref says he called time, ref agrees, no penalty. Even on replay you see the clock hit zero first. Now it’s still 3rd and 6 instead of 3rd and 11. The next play Pittsburgh gets a 1st down. Runs more time off the clock in the waning minutes.
I hope you thanked Bill Leavy and his crew
- Darrell Jackson was called for offensive pass interference for pushing off Chris Hope on what would have been a 16-yard touchdown from Matt Hasselbeck. The push was weak. Could have gone either way. What got me was the ref was watching Jackson, presumably to make sure he had the catch. Then he looked over at the defensive back who was calling for pass interference. Only then did the referee pull the flag out. He should have called it before the catch when the presumable interference took place.
- The next very questionable call was the good return by Peter Warrick which would have set them up in scoring range, but no, the refs called holding. On replay, no clear sign of holding though there was no argument by the Seattle player called for the hold.
- Ben Roethlisberger’s touchdown he may have gotten in. As you see in the photo it doesn’t look like he crossed the white line. If we’re sitting at home and can’t tell on the super slow motion replay whether the ball crossed the line, then I don’t know how the referee could see it in full speed. The side judge seemed to have his arm up in the air to call it 4th down after the dive but then he sees Ben lying in the end zone with the ball. So he calls it a touchdown.
- A phantom holding call which would have given them the ball at the 1 yard line for the go-ahead score early in the 4th quarter. Madden felt clearly he saw no holding. Heard on the radio that all the ESPN analysts watching the game together felt like no hold there also. Next play, Pitt is clearly offsides with no call but a sack instead. Hasselbeck throws an INT on the same drive.
- The tackle by Hasselbeck on the interception should have never been made. Ridiculous. They called him for a tackle below the knees. If he were hitting the lead blocker below the knees would that have been a penalty. But he was making a tackle so he can go low. How did they miss that? Gave the Steelers an extra 15 yards. Steelers score on the Randel El touchdown pass on that drive.
- What seemed like a pretty clear horse collar tackle by Joey Porter on Shaun Alexander. If a horse collar tackle is bringing down a player by the collar of their jersey/shoulder pads from behind then that was as clear as I could see. Why create that penalty if you’re not going to call it?
- Finally, on 3rd down time clock shows 00, Ben looks to the ref says he called time, ref agrees, no penalty. Even on replay you see the clock hit zero first. Now it’s still 3rd and 6 instead of 3rd and 11. The next play Pittsburgh gets a 1st down. Runs more time off the clock in the waning minutes.
I hope you thanked Bill Leavy and his crew
Savage those pics didn't prove shit! Watch the plays over again... Freeze it this time when the tip of the ball cradled inside Roethlisberger's elbow touch the white line in the air. Do you not know the rule? This isn't Rugby or American Football in the early 1900's where the ball had to actually touch the ground inside the endzone. All it has to do is break the plain which it clearly did in the air! If for some reason they didn't give that TD to them on that play, The Steelers would have got in on the next play anyway! Seattle fans even admit that...
Also, watch the Holding call again which was clearly HOLDING! You seem to be avoided all the other Holding no calls that your seaChickens got away with and the bad calls against Pittsburgh. Also, you didn't have to prove your point on the Hasselbeck "Low Block", because I already said that was a bad call. This really didn't make much of a difference anyway, because that shitbird sub at Safety still would have bit on that Reverse TD Pass from Randle El to Ward! Ward clearly had the DB's beat, so how would that have made a difference?
You guys just keep wanting to make excuses, because HasselPECK and HOMOgren made huge mistakes that cost their team. Of course HOMOgren is going to try and reflect attention from his mistakes while talking to the media about the Refs screwed us.! Fuckin crybabies!!!
At the end of the day we know who won the Super Bowl fair all the way around...
GO STEELERS!!!
Also, watch the Holding call again which was clearly HOLDING! You seem to be avoided all the other Holding no calls that your seaChickens got away with and the bad calls against Pittsburgh. Also, you didn't have to prove your point on the Hasselbeck "Low Block", because I already said that was a bad call. This really didn't make much of a difference anyway, because that shitbird sub at Safety still would have bit on that Reverse TD Pass from Randle El to Ward! Ward clearly had the DB's beat, so how would that have made a difference?
You guys just keep wanting to make excuses, because HasselPECK and HOMOgren made huge mistakes that cost their team. Of course HOMOgren is going to try and reflect attention from his mistakes while talking to the media about the Refs screwed us.! Fuckin crybabies!!!
At the end of the day we know who won the Super Bowl fair all the way around...
GO STEELERS!!!