Clash between sience and religion
- Thread starter iaoish
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No, you DIDN'T know the reason for the question, and you made the convo take a sour note.
Why would I be disappointed if you or a loved one have not been molested? YOU'RE the one who constantly brings up molestation and pedophillia, so is it WRONG to ask you why you do it? Sounds like you have some personal issues going on pal.
This doesn't make sense, and if you are going to make personal attacks, at LEAST you can make it funny OR attack a person who actually has something to do with what you're discussing. This is a convo between you and myself, and while it is open for the forum to see, I don't understand why you are bringing stockton into this convo. If you have issues with that guy you need to handle them with HIM.
OK, but you have many educated people who still believe in God. Some of the most well known humanitarians, philosophers, etc believed in a higher power. Are you implying that educated people do not believe in God, or are you suggesting education was your ticket "out"?
I believe I can speak for the majority of the board when I say you don't come off as a person who has read books pertaining to religion or one who has studied religion. We don't need to dig up pasts posts for evidence of this. All we need to do is look at your claims of Mohammad and the age of his wives, and your entire claim of studying religions will come under the microscope. The question is, do we need to do it?
What about the tooth fairy?
Faith in what? Education and studying religions or santa and the easter bunny? Please clarify your question.
Why would I be disappointed if you or a loved one have not been molested? YOU'RE the one who constantly brings up molestation and pedophillia, so is it WRONG to ask you why you do it? Sounds like you have some personal issues going on pal.
This doesn't make sense, and if you are going to make personal attacks, at LEAST you can make it funny OR attack a person who actually has something to do with what you're discussing. This is a convo between you and myself, and while it is open for the forum to see, I don't understand why you are bringing stockton into this convo. If you have issues with that guy you need to handle them with HIM.
OK, but you have many educated people who still believe in God. Some of the most well known humanitarians, philosophers, etc believed in a higher power. Are you implying that educated people do not believe in God, or are you suggesting education was your ticket "out"?
I believe I can speak for the majority of the board when I say you don't come off as a person who has read books pertaining to religion or one who has studied religion. We don't need to dig up pasts posts for evidence of this. All we need to do is look at your claims of Mohammad and the age of his wives, and your entire claim of studying religions will come under the microscope. The question is, do we need to do it?
What about the tooth fairy?
Faith in what? Education and studying religions or santa and the easter bunny? Please clarify your question.
No no no, you're getting it wrong again. Mutations are random, evolution is directed. Here's a basic example.
The African Savannah. A persistent drought grips the land, animals are starving to death. One such animal is born with a mutation in a homeobox gene (which controls phenotypic development), resulting in an elongated neck. This new animal can now reach leaves which no other animal can and thus has a significant advantage over the other animals. Now, the odds of this 'giraffe' being born are low. You must realise that whilst this individual animal had an advantage over others (and thus survived to breed), thousands of animals were born which either did not have this mutation or had different mutations, none of which helped them survive. What about the 'giraffe' which was born with a homeobox mutation that resulted in the growth of two extra legs? He died because this mutation did not confer any advantage. What about the 'giraffe' which was born with a mutation which made him blind? He also died. Do you get the picture? That's the whole definition of 'Natural selection' - nature is the selection pressure. Those animals which have mutations which prove to be beneficial live, whereas the other 99.9999%, who don't have beneficial mutations, die. Thus, this mutation spreads throughout the entire population.
I apologise for the long spiel, but do you now understand why evolution is NOT a random even though mutations are? We are ordered because we have been forced to develop such order. Mutations which help us survive survive with us, those which don't die with us.
The African Savannah. A persistent drought grips the land, animals are starving to death. One such animal is born with a mutation in a homeobox gene (which controls phenotypic development), resulting in an elongated neck. This new animal can now reach leaves which no other animal can and thus has a significant advantage over the other animals. Now, the odds of this 'giraffe' being born are low. You must realise that whilst this individual animal had an advantage over others (and thus survived to breed), thousands of animals were born which either did not have this mutation or had different mutations, none of which helped them survive. What about the 'giraffe' which was born with a homeobox mutation that resulted in the growth of two extra legs? He died because this mutation did not confer any advantage. What about the 'giraffe' which was born with a mutation which made him blind? He also died. Do you get the picture? That's the whole definition of 'Natural selection' - nature is the selection pressure. Those animals which have mutations which prove to be beneficial live, whereas the other 99.9999%, who don't have beneficial mutations, die. Thus, this mutation spreads throughout the entire population.
I apologise for the long spiel, but do you now understand why evolution is NOT a random even though mutations are? We are ordered because we have been forced to develop such order. Mutations which help us survive survive with us, those which don't die with us.
i understand what youre saying, but what is the chance for the mutation to be helpful when there is no such order in anyway shape or form guiding it?
with that said, what would be the chance for so many things to "somehow" mutate by "chance" and end up with such complex organisms as humans etc.
i understand what your saying tho.
with that said, what would be the chance for so many things to "somehow" mutate by "chance" and end up with such complex organisms as humans etc.
i understand what your saying tho.
I have explained this to you before. Mutations are not always a loss of information and they are not always bad - the good ones help us live jon! If I poured nuclear waste on you, your DNA would mutate so severely that you would die, yes. That has nothing to do with evolution.
There you go then, you just admitted it is evolution. Growing hair in a cold climate helps you keep warm and increases your chance of survival - growing an eye helps you see and increases your chance of survival. The latter is more complex, but the EXACT same rules apply.
I agree. Poor nutritional choices and other societal diseases born as a result of our current living standards also weaken the human gene pool. Mutations do not keep the body occupied, unless by mutation you mean cancer (that can keep bodies occupied!). The majority of eukaryotic mutations (eukaryotes are multi-cellular organisms if you did not know) are a result of meiosis (the formation of gametes during sexual reproduction). Thus, the only time these mutations significantly occupy us is during our time in the womb. Why are miscarriage rates so high? It's not only the current environment, they have always been high - as a result of a bad mixing of mummy and daddies genes. The baby doesn't have the genes required for survival so it DOESN'T survive.
The government are fucking idiots, you know that. Besides, the big pharma companies have their hands in all the government cookie jars. Most of the current drugs are derived from natural sources though - I hope by 'we know that's not true', you are referring to these natural sources of cures and not the dodgey 'faith healers' whom extremely gullible people believe in.
I've already explained this before and can't be bothered reiterating my previous argument. Let me just tell you that it can - besides, it's not as though you'd actually listen to my argument, you'd just try to cloud it in ignorance.
You obviously haven't been taught well. Maybe it doesn't add up for you, maybe you're one of those people who perpetually think "there's got to be more to life than this!". I use wisdom, and most of it is derived from cold logic - what wisdom do you get from God? Regardless of what definition you take, the majority define wisdom as "deep, thorough or mature understanding", or " The ability to discern or judge what is true, right, or lasting". You believe in God based on absolutely no evidence, hence the term 'faith', and therefore belief in God is not wisdom but is in fact the opposite - IGNORANCE.
There you go then, you just admitted it is evolution. Growing hair in a cold climate helps you keep warm and increases your chance of survival - growing an eye helps you see and increases your chance of survival. The latter is more complex, but the EXACT same rules apply.
I agree. Poor nutritional choices and other societal diseases born as a result of our current living standards also weaken the human gene pool. Mutations do not keep the body occupied, unless by mutation you mean cancer (that can keep bodies occupied!). The majority of eukaryotic mutations (eukaryotes are multi-cellular organisms if you did not know) are a result of meiosis (the formation of gametes during sexual reproduction). Thus, the only time these mutations significantly occupy us is during our time in the womb. Why are miscarriage rates so high? It's not only the current environment, they have always been high - as a result of a bad mixing of mummy and daddies genes. The baby doesn't have the genes required for survival so it DOESN'T survive.
The government are fucking idiots, you know that. Besides, the big pharma companies have their hands in all the government cookie jars. Most of the current drugs are derived from natural sources though - I hope by 'we know that's not true', you are referring to these natural sources of cures and not the dodgey 'faith healers' whom extremely gullible people believe in.
I've already explained this before and can't be bothered reiterating my previous argument. Let me just tell you that it can - besides, it's not as though you'd actually listen to my argument, you'd just try to cloud it in ignorance.
You obviously haven't been taught well. Maybe it doesn't add up for you, maybe you're one of those people who perpetually think "there's got to be more to life than this!". I use wisdom, and most of it is derived from cold logic - what wisdom do you get from God? Regardless of what definition you take, the majority define wisdom as "deep, thorough or mature understanding", or " The ability to discern or judge what is true, right, or lasting". You believe in God based on absolutely no evidence, hence the term 'faith', and therefore belief in God is not wisdom but is in fact the opposite - IGNORANCE.
baby steps Hemp - there was no 'thousand mutations in a week' resulting in the formation of a human. Maybe one beneficial mutation happened every few years, this individual had a better survival rate than others and bred more. This mutation permeated throughout the whole population, and then a few years later another individual had a beneficial mutation ad infinitum. Suddenly, over millions of years, thousands and thousands of beneficial mutations occur, each one built on the beneficial mutations of the past. Over time, all of these mutations resulted in the formation of an extremely complex and well adapted species. Of course, also over this time, there were billions of individuals who had nasty mutations which decreased their survival ability - and they all died. Even if 0.00001% of mutations were beneficial (mutations being completely random and all), that is enough, combined with time, to result in the formation of an extremely complex organism, one which religious people refuse to believe could have been derived from any other source than their hypothetical 'God'.
Evolution is guided - by nature. By the wind, water and the sun, the atmosphere, other animals that live around it, chemicals and heat. These all combine to determine whether a mutation will help the individual survive (a mutation resulting in the production of an anti-freeze is beneficial to deep sea fish and thus this organism will survive. The same mutation resulting in anti-freeze would not be beneficial in an African elephant because of it's different environment, it's different selective pressure).
Evolution is guided - by nature. By the wind, water and the sun, the atmosphere, other animals that live around it, chemicals and heat. These all combine to determine whether a mutation will help the individual survive (a mutation resulting in the production of an anti-freeze is beneficial to deep sea fish and thus this organism will survive. The same mutation resulting in anti-freeze would not be beneficial in an African elephant because of it's different environment, it's different selective pressure).
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i havnt read nething here so if this sounds completely off topic forgive me
my thoughts on evolution is that humans ability and necessity to create a solution to every physical need we have, and will ever have, practically eliminates are potential to evolve. evolutions occur usually when a species requires a new function or body part to survive. but when we're hot we turn on the fan or AC. when we need to fly we take a plane.
i think if any evolution should take place it should be a devolution of our intelligence. more of us have died as a result of our outstanding intelligence than nething else.
my thoughts on evolution is that humans ability and necessity to create a solution to every physical need we have, and will ever have, practically eliminates are potential to evolve. evolutions occur usually when a species requires a new function or body part to survive. but when we're hot we turn on the fan or AC. when we need to fly we take a plane.
i think if any evolution should take place it should be a devolution of our intelligence. more of us have died as a result of our outstanding intelligence than nething else.
actually i think the problem is the lack of wisdom.
you see, we are created with many flaws that make our ability to see and understand more difficult such as our memory, arrogance, the fact that we can only understand things we accept to be true/existant, the fact that in order to see anything differently one must take enough time and thought to build enough support for any other arguement which in order for him to be able to do so, he must get rid of any assumption that denies the arguement since his subconscious will only allow him to see what he believes, etc.
FUCK a tangent...
anyway
once one sees the importance of such factors as i did, then one should take a step back and "grow" another step in intelligence which would be to understand of the vulnerability of our minds and view things slightly differently.
Most people assume that once they reach adulthood that there isnt anymore growing that needs to be done, and they stop trying.
although your arguement brings up this question.
Are all steps taken a step forward or does it go both ways?
the reason i ask this is because most spiritual teachings teach that every step taken is a step forward and i have seen proof of such in many occasions but id like to know what you guys think.
btw, i will begin to limit my posts to one or two a day until my english gets better and i quit boring yall to death with my posts.
Don't confuse me with Elton John.
I directly reply to MANY of the postings here, and to be perfectly honest, I rarely reply to yours.
Before I get the five million mark, can I get a sticker or free pizza coupon for hitting one million?
No you didn't. You THOUGHT the question was confrontational, and you tried to get a head start. I'm sorry, but the question was not confrontational, but judging by your reaction, I now believe I may have struck a nerve. You're an educated person, you know how to get over these things.
The fact that you constantly bring something up is not my fault, and the fact that I notice it does not mean I pay attention to that and that only. I pay attention to many things, but on numerous occassions, you have mentioned sexual deviance in the religious community. If you didn't mention it as often as you do, the chances of me paying attention to it would be slim and none.
Again, you fail to address the other problems in the religious community such as caste systems, mismanagement of funds, racist doctrines, murder and drug use. Maybe YOU should pay attention to these instead of constantly paying attention ot the sexual hypocrisy of the religious community.
The board would disagree with you. While some of our beliefs are the same many are different, and I believe the board holds me to a higher standard than stockton. However, stockton should be THANKING you for comparing him to a handsome and intelligent male (myself.)
This is funny. I have my own occult sidebar religion? How can one have an occult side bar religion yet be a bible thumping old testament devotee who believes in hell? LMAO! Please tell me you meant I have my own CULT (which is different from OCCULT), because if thats not what you meant, your entire statement is DUMB! But peep game, even if you DID mean occult, it still doesn't make sense because it contradicts what you later say. :dead:
The list of people claiming to talk to God or hearing from God is not a short list, and the more people talk about it the more it will become less taboo. Dr. King said he talked to God. Whats the difference between him making the claim and myself making the claim? Is he more important or more Gods favorite that he can communicate with him and I can't? As far as prophetic claims, you don't have to agree and do you not have to believe. As I've proven in the past when people mention those things to attack my character I don't get upset, because I don't take it as insulting Heresy. :knockout:
Drooling and licking the window "special"?
I seriously don't believe you have, and you have yet to type anything that proves otherwise. We can take your use of occult (which appears to be used OUT OF CONTEXT), and we can look at your claims of Mohammad and the age of his wives, and your entire claim of studying religions will come under the microscope.
Again, do we really need to do this? If so, lets get the ball rolling.
And what happens when santa doesn't deliver on xmas? Do I cry and go nuts or do I snatch your presents?
I directly reply to MANY of the postings here, and to be perfectly honest, I rarely reply to yours.
Before I get the five million mark, can I get a sticker or free pizza coupon for hitting one million?
No you didn't. You THOUGHT the question was confrontational, and you tried to get a head start. I'm sorry, but the question was not confrontational, but judging by your reaction, I now believe I may have struck a nerve. You're an educated person, you know how to get over these things.
The fact that you constantly bring something up is not my fault, and the fact that I notice it does not mean I pay attention to that and that only. I pay attention to many things, but on numerous occassions, you have mentioned sexual deviance in the religious community. If you didn't mention it as often as you do, the chances of me paying attention to it would be slim and none.
Again, you fail to address the other problems in the religious community such as caste systems, mismanagement of funds, racist doctrines, murder and drug use. Maybe YOU should pay attention to these instead of constantly paying attention ot the sexual hypocrisy of the religious community.
The board would disagree with you. While some of our beliefs are the same many are different, and I believe the board holds me to a higher standard than stockton. However, stockton should be THANKING you for comparing him to a handsome and intelligent male (myself.)
This is funny. I have my own occult sidebar religion? How can one have an occult side bar religion yet be a bible thumping old testament devotee who believes in hell? LMAO! Please tell me you meant I have my own CULT (which is different from OCCULT), because if thats not what you meant, your entire statement is DUMB! But peep game, even if you DID mean occult, it still doesn't make sense because it contradicts what you later say. :dead:
The list of people claiming to talk to God or hearing from God is not a short list, and the more people talk about it the more it will become less taboo. Dr. King said he talked to God. Whats the difference between him making the claim and myself making the claim? Is he more important or more Gods favorite that he can communicate with him and I can't? As far as prophetic claims, you don't have to agree and do you not have to believe. As I've proven in the past when people mention those things to attack my character I don't get upset, because I don't take it as insulting Heresy. :knockout:
Drooling and licking the window "special"?
I seriously don't believe you have, and you have yet to type anything that proves otherwise. We can take your use of occult (which appears to be used OUT OF CONTEXT), and we can look at your claims of Mohammad and the age of his wives, and your entire claim of studying religions will come under the microscope.
Again, do we really need to do this? If so, lets get the ball rolling.
And what happens when santa doesn't deliver on xmas? Do I cry and go nuts or do I snatch your presents?