Clash between sience and religion

[CannibalCrow]

^^ That's about what my folks believe. They're christian, but they're also really into science and technology. My mother believes in god guided evolution, and that the bible is more like the shortened version of the story since man couldn't handle the concept of billions of years back in the day. It's basically the same story, but drawn out of billions of years. The Big Bang being "and then there was light", and the darkness before it being at the very beginning. According to my mother, God works on a universal scale, and people forget how big he is. They take things too literally and lose focus of the important ideals. The beginning of the bible isn't there for you to make into your life doctrine upon, it's there to open up a story. Whether it took a week or billions of years doesn't really matter much to god. What is time to something that is eternal..? How would you explain billions to a poor farmer thousands of years ago? It's the idea of the book that you need to learn. Consider the period in which it was written. I'm not religious, but I find that point of view interesting. That is all.

 

[Hutch]

lol...100 pages of what?? bullshit that the school system has been feeding you.

Get a life jon, and get an education while you're at it - you can only stay ignorant for so long before everyone notices, including yourself.

 

[Hutch]

^^^is this guy serious. so then the eye and all its systems formed by chance over millions of years? you think this is how we've ended up. you think we are improving and geting better as time goes by. if you open your eyes you'll see that the very opposite is true. we are getting smaller and weaker. we were already perfect from the moment of creation. if you dont think god created you then tell me how life can begin out of chaos from the big dud.

There is a simple FACT that you need to understand jon. Evolution is not, I repeat NOT, a chance event. Mutations are chance, but the positive selection of beneficial mutations, accumulating over time to result in new beneficial traits (i.e. evolution), is NOT chance.

Your concept of 'improving and getting better' is obviously different from evolutions. Improving and getting better, from an evolutionary standpoint, means adapting to the prevailing environment - if it's cold, grow some long fur, if it's sunny, pack your skin full of melanin to reduce the indicence of skin cancer (a negative selection pressure).

The reason why the human race is currently getting 'weaker' is because we have moved beyond 'natural' selection. I'm not advocating any form of eugenics program, but in the past, those males who were weak, slow, fat and physiologically inferior would not get the chance to breed. Only those who were tribal leaders, warriors and good hunters would pass on their genes, thus resulting in the next generation which would share their traits. Nowadays, any person, regardless of how genetically and physiologically 'inferior' they are, can breed. Why? Because that small, uncoordinated man can now become the head of a major company and attract mates who would have otherwise not taken a second look at him. Humans have developed new selection criteria.

Also, if someone was born with multiple sclerosis in the past, they would have died long before reaching the breeding age. By developing medicines to treat such diseases, we are prolonging their lives enough for them to have children, thus passing on their otherwise lethal genes. In other words, the gene pool of the human race is slowly weakening.

There have been numerous posts on other threads describing how life may have potentially started without the assistance of a divine figure. The Harold-Urey experiment, even though it didn't exactly replicate the conditions present on the early Earth, suggested how this could have happened. Lipid 'bubbles' have been shown to form spontaneously, thus all you need is a stable internal negative feedback loop (something which can replicate), and that would do it. Crystals can form wildly variable and extremely structured lattices using clay as a template, and life may have evolved structure from such a system. These are all speculation, but they show that, in theory, it is definitely possible for life to have spontaneously formed from 'thin air'.

Seriously jon, if you can read, then don't attempt such a daunting task as reading 100 pages a day. Instead, just try to read 5-10 pages of 'that bullshit that the school systems feeding you' and get some smarts.

 

[2-0-NINE]

God does know Science, after he inspired many things. But when Science is being used against him, God said there is no weapon that shall prosper against me. When you use Science to try to rule out God, you rule out all of your lame theories. I'm a Christian, and Science can be positive in the sense it can help prove the biblical facts, but Not God. God Proves himself in the hearts, minds and souls of men. It's up to you whether to block the idea of God within you. According to most you Atheist, God cannot be proven with human Logic, so isn't that almost excusing our faiths? So if you have faith in something, that's not using Logic.

I don't believe God led man to Evolution, I think otherwise. Just like how I don't believe he led people to the gnostic writings, or divided the Church. There are things he allows in this world, why? To test faiths, since this is a science/religion thread, the Devil was given authority over the world, shoot even God himself called satan the god of this world. Meaning that satan is the ruler because of the sin and corruption.

I find it really hard for God to make a weapon against himself. Anyone remember the question can God make a Rock to heavy for himself, the answer is no. Just like the theories of evolution, and how the earth is billions of years old.

 

[RedStorm]

Science is not used against God. By it's very definition, science is not even concerned with God. It is religion (and those who follow) that brings God into science.

 

[Cmoke]

God does know Science, after he inspired many things. But when Science is being used against him, God said there is no weapon that shall prosper against me. When you use Science to try to rule out God, you rule out all of your lame theories.

Lame theories? Excuse you but im sorry, not everyone believes in a God and you cant understand what thats like obviously blinded by your beliefs. You call any other then your beliefs "lame"? are you serious? get real bro.

I'm a Christian, and Science can be positive in the sense it can help prove the biblical facts, but Not God.

You're a christian, great. How does science show biblical "Facts" to be true? If you can't back claims then dont make them. Simple as that.

God Proves himself in the hearts, minds and souls of men.

As a belief or sense of hope.

It's up to you whether to block the idea of God within you.

"God" is not in me. "God" has never helped me or been a part of my life. I do not believe in a "God". Period, there was no choice. Get it? I'm almost sure you don't.

According to most you Atheist, God cannot be proven with human Logic, so isn't that almost excusing our faiths? So if you have faith in something, that's not using Logic.

Faith and logic do not roll hand in hand. Logic involves decision making on known facts, Faith is a believing that those facts do exist without known fact.

IE: Do i take route a which is 25 mins shorter then Route B?

Is there a "God" that created everything that exists?

There are things he allows in this world, why?

He? I'm sorry to remind you that when you speak about your own beliefs you should not refer to them as though everyone follows your ways....

Anyone remember the question can God make a Rock to heavy for himself, the answer is no. Just like the theories of evolution, and how the earth is billions of years old.

Again i remind you that your beliefs are noted and that those are in fact ONLY your beliefs. So don't open you big mouth like you think it applies to the world of those who do not believe.

 

[2-0-NINE]

Lame theories? Excuse you but im sorry, not everyone believes in a God and you cant understand what thats like obviously blinded by your beliefs. You call any other then your beliefs "lame"? are you serious? get real bro.

Not all the time quite frankly

You're a christian, great. How does science show biblical "Facts" to be true? If you can't back claims then dont make them. Simple as that.

Fossils=the Flood of Noah

As a belief or sense of hope.

Yes, that too.

"God" is not in me. "God" has never helped me or been a part of my life. I do not believe in a "God". Period, there was no choice. Get it? I'm almost sure you don't.

Haha, I don't care. Good for you

Faith and logic do not roll hand in hand. Logic involves decision making on known facts, Faith is a believing that those facts do exist without known fact.

IE: Do i take route a which is 25 mins shorter then Route B?

Is there a "God" that created everything that exists?

Yes

He? I'm sorry to remind you that when you speak about your own beliefs you should not refer to them as though everyone follows your ways....

So does believing we came from monkey or microorganisms. Or that the world is billions of years old.

Again i remind you that your beliefs are noted and that those are in fact ONLY your beliefs. So don't open you big mouth like you think it applies to the world of those who do not believe.

Neither doesn't scientific theories, you guys talk shit about faith and religion, what about these unproven and fantasy like theories.

 

[2-0-NINE]

I THINK ALOT OF SUPER RELIGIOUS PEOPLE ARE HELLA CLOSE MINDED AND TAKE EVERYTHING IN THE BIBE TO HEART WAY TOO EXTREME BUT THERE WAS ALOT OF STUFF LEFT OUT OF THE BIBLE AND ALOT OF THE TRANSLATIONS ARE SCREWED UP ASWELL

Man, people these days, search the Siccness search engine, it'll explain alot.

 

[Hemp]

HAHAHAHA, cmoke, dont even waste your time with stockton man, this guy is more worried about posting posting and posting rather than understanding whats written.
god damn it hasnt been even a year yet and hes almost at 5000 posts.
u been here since 2002 and you are only at 2800.
somebody needs to send him back to the open forum because even i have been losing interest in the GOM. It almost feels like GOM has sold out.

those true GOM members such as 206 havent been posting, and i would much rather lose stockton than a person such as 206.

 

[2-0-NINE]

HAHAHAHA, cmoke, dont even waste your time with stockton man, this guy is more worried about posting posting and posting rather than understanding whats written.
god damn it hasnt been even a year yet and hes almost at 5000 posts.
u been here since 2002 and you are only at 2800.
somebody needs to send him back to the open forum because even i have been losing interest in the GOM. It almost feels like GOM has sold out.

those true GOM members such as 206 havent been posting, and i would much rather lose stockton than a person such as 206.

Maybe if 206 could see how lame you are, he'd probably send you there. Don't waste your time, like what, you obviously don't observe well, I have learned a couple of things from a scientific standpoint, you my friend, just see it how you see it, and will twist if your way. Your the waste of time. Why do you keep bringin up me going to the open forum, and leaving the GOM? Are you that infatuated with the thought of me going there, and being banned from the GOM? lol, ok.

Maybe YOU'RE TOO BLIND TO SEE THAT HE'S THE ONE POSTING THE NEW TOPICS LMAO!

 

[Hemp]

zzz, it sounds like you are speakin about yourself when you say "you my friend, you see it how you want to see it"

see , what you cannot see is that your whole way of thinking is based according to the guidelines of christianity.
when one says "im a nonbeliever" automatically you assume he is athiest.
but obviously those such as cmoke can clearly see what i just said, esp when he said "Lame theories? Excuse you but im sorry, not everyone believes in a God and you cant understand what thats like obviously blinded by your beliefs. You call any other then your beliefs "lame"? are you serious? get real bro."

listen man, you seriously cannot see what im saying, because it doesnt go with what your religion claims.

basically man, im done with you and i will stop wasting my time by reading your posts and simply place you on ignore.

It was nice seeing that your a complete moron, and goodbye =)

 

[nhojsmith]

it used to be popular to worship rocks, then it was popular to worship the weather, then gods, then god, then the bones and teachings of a jew who was killed 2000 years ago or a pedophile from the middle east. you all believe that some supreme power gave birth to us inferior beings who struggle to win his grace.

I think we are the gods, I think simplicity gives rise to more complex beings. some call this evoultion, and in evolution, simpler forms beget more complicated things. you're minds are stuck, some sick mother daughter notion where god is your mother and she lives in the sky and will care for you in life and in death. all these religions give you the guise of choice but you all believe the same backwards approach to existece. there is a fine line, isn't it possible that you are precisely wrong, that your vision is blurred and your guidance from the past has failed you.

you look up to god and down on your fellow man, you pray for miracles and look past the miracle of life, that yes however small the chances of our existence we are here. but you deny this miracle in faor of another. you claim you have faith but aren't willing to think beyond teahings written in stone by dead men.

so you lead your life banking on what comes next, your preach selflessness but think only of your place in eternity beside your king. how many religious followers think they will be punished in the afterlife? no, its always someone else who will suffer.

you feel you are not worthy of godliness because you see your faults and don't want to believe you are the best existence has to offer, you fear science, you fear free thought though these are the things that make you so spectacular compared to other life. you are all "gods".

you are what time as we know it has produced, you are not the first or the last gods there will be more, you will have children and they will have children. who created you? you call them mother and father. how will you live after death? you call them son and daughter.

 

[HERESY]

Why is that a percentage of your posts dealing with religion, religious leaders or dogma contain reference to pedophillia and molestation?

 

[nhojsmith]

because it represents one of the most horrific hypocracys of your faiths, perhaps you haven't heard of the thousands of cases in the catholic church or the marriage ages of mohammeds wives, this wouldn't surprise me.

 

[ilikeballs]

trying to convince people over the internet is an impossible feat when the other people dont view your religous beliefs. Dont know why you would try, are you trying to say that all other outlooks and beliefs that are non religous are wrong? If you know somthing everyone else doesnt then why dont you come out and stun the world with it. Unitll that never happens you can simply believe what you want to believe and respect others beliefs, and dont even try to say you do or you are because you snicker at peoples outlooks. So tell me how this all started, life the life cycle from the beginning how god was made, how somthing somone or somthing is created out of nothing. please shock me.

NO, im not saying all other views other than relgious are wrong. i personally dont even care for organized religion. i follow god personally. but you want the big shocker. god created us from dust and made us perfect in his image. adam and eve were living the big life in the garden of eden. we disobeyed god and now we have to work for a living. the world was still perfect but after the big flood a canopy of water that surrounded the earth collapse and the sun began the slow process of mutating our genes and changing our aperances and we also began to get weaker and smaller. our bodies are extrodinary. they have an amazing healing ability. but now fastforward to now. poor nutrition, pollution, drugs(pharmicutical), mutations from the suns rays have made us the way we are now. the government knows all this info but is keeping it from you so they can milk you for your money. they created stressfull eviroments and put you in a rat race called capitalism. they created the FOOD and DRUG admin. to control the the food and drugs. they work with big coorparations to keep us like this. they give us shitty food that provides low nutrients and is full of shit that pollutes your body and lowers your immune system. all so they can sell you drugs, that mask the symptoms and have terrible side effects, so they keep you coming for more. all of this to control you. to keep you stupid and blind from the truth. they are attacking your body and mind, they are keeping you weak and you dont even realize it.
now tell me does it sound like im making this shit up!! i dont care if you believe in god or not, do what you do. but dont sit here and tell me to believe in bullshit like evolution that the government sponsors and dont tell me that religion is to blame. why are we medicaly worsed of now than 50 years when we have all this shit thats suppose to make us live longer? they created loopholes so they could tax the shit out of your income and deduct it of theirs. they keep getting rich while you make them rich. all of this info is out there. now tell me your "truths" if you have any. ive done my research now tell me yours

 

[V]

I believe in a higher being and I believe in evolution because nobody has made an argument good enough against evolution to make me think otherwise...we are the result of millions of years of evolution guided by adaptation, mutations and genetic drift.

@Stockton - like stated in the article, how do you explain babies being born deformed using religion?

 

[V]

@jon21...read Hutch's post

 

[2-0-Sixx]

but dont sit here and tell me to believe in bullshit like evolution that the government sponsors

Uh, have you paid attention at all for the last several years? George Dubya, his cronies and the republican right haven't been trying to push "Intelligent Design" in our schools?

why are we medicaly worsed of now than 50 years when we have all this shit thats suppose to make us live longer?

We are living longer.

 

[ilikeballs]

There is a simple FACT that you need to understand jon. Evolution is not, I repeat NOT, a chance event. Mutations are chance, but the positive selection of beneficial mutations, accumulating over time to result in new beneficial traits (i.e. evolution), is NOT chance.

i agree that we can adapt to an enviroment over time, just like my body can adapt to me having one kidney or one lung, for one reason or another. wether its from the enviroment or mutation. but mutation, which is a loss of info not a gain, only foces us to adapt to new, less favorable, circumstances.
so this doesnt tell me how evolved into better beings through mutation. theres a limit to how much info can be mutated before we cease to be functional.

Your concept of 'improving and getting better' is obviously different from evolutions. Improving and getting better, from an evolutionary standpoint, means adapting to the prevailing environment - if it's cold, grow some long fur, if it's sunny, pack your skin full of melanin to reduce the indicence of skin cancer (a negative selection pressure).

this is called micro-evolution.

The reason why the human race is currently getting 'weaker' is because we have moved beyond 'natural' selection. I'm not advocating any form of eugenics program, but in the past, those males who were weak, slow, fat and physiologically inferior would not get the chance to breed. Only those who were tribal leaders, warriors and good hunters would pass on their genes, thus resulting in the next generation which would share their traits. Nowadays, any person, regardless of how genetically and physiologically 'inferior' they are, can breed. Why? Because that small, uncoordinated man can now become the head of a major company and attract mates who would have otherwise not taken a second look at him. Humans have developed new selection criteria.

so you dont think poor nutrition, stressfull enviroments, pharmacutical drugs, and other factors have anything to do with it? i can tell you right now that the current american diet has little nutritional value and keeps the bodies immune system weak. that is why we are more prone to disease now than ever before. add that with mutation which keeps the body occupied by forcing it to adapt and you got a recipe for disaster. this is the reason why we are weak.

Also, if someone was born with multiple sclerosis in the past, they would have died long before reaching the breeding age. By developing medicines to treat such diseases, we are prolonging their lives enough for them to have children, thus passing on their otherwise lethal genes. In other words, the gene pool of the human race is slowly weakening.

this is true also, but why has the government said that the only thing that can cure diesease are drugs?, when we know thats not true.

There have been numerous posts on other threads describing how life may have potentially started without the assistance of a divine figure. The Harold-Urey experiment, even though it didn't exactly replicate the conditions present on the early Earth, suggested how this could have happened. Lipid 'bubbles' have been shown to form spontaneously, thus all you need is a stable internal negative feedback loop (something which can replicate), and that would do it. Crystals can form wildly variable and extremely structured lattices using clay as a template, and life may have evolved structure from such a system. These are all speculation, but they show that, in theory, it is definitely possible for life to have spontaneously formed from 'thin air'.

but how did the earth and all stars form from a violent explosion that can only create chaos and not order?

Seriously jon, if you can read, then don't attempt such a daunting task as reading 100 pages a day. Instead, just try to read 5-10 pages of 'that bullshit that the school systems feeding you' and get some smarts.

ive been taught all that already, it just doesnt add up. and i know something is being hidden from you. but you wont question it if all your using is cold logic. use your wisdom.

 

[HERESY]

because it represents one of the most horrific hypocracys of your faiths, perhaps you haven't heard of the thousands of cases in the catholic church or the marriage ages of mohammeds wives, this wouldn't surprise me.

It represents one of the most horrific hypocrisies of my faith? How do you come to this conclusion? My "faith" isn't "religion". Perhaps I have heard of the thousands of cases in the catholic church, but if Islam does not promote an "age limit" and an age limit is not an issue within the muslim community, how is it hypocritical? In any case, neither are applicable to what I believe in, and you have other instances of hypocrisy that are just as bad. However, it seems you NEVER really focus on these and tend to stick with the sexual crimes (or what your culture/belief system lables as sexual crimes). Knowing this to be true, it wouldn't surprise me if your lack of faith was actually the result of a loved one or yourself being molested by a member of clergy, etc.