Would you...
- Thread starter Calm 1 NPK 503
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Thats true that Americans are supposed to be "liberating" people and spreading "democracy" and shouldnt be shooting people on purpose... a war crime and a crime to humanity. I cant think of any war where innocent civilians were not shot, innocent women were not raped and normal people were not subjected to inhumane conditions due to their occupyers so I guess I dont see the connection to the American flag or it being a strickly American phenomena.
But in another thread you simply say to blame war.....
First of all you would have to have knowledge of every war, and I am POSITIVE that you do NOT have knowledge pertaining to every war. Why? Because so many wars have taken place no accurate number exists. So many wars are taking place behind the scenes (especially in Afrika) they don't get reported.
No one has implied that the murder of innocents is strickly american phenomena, but when a country is supposed to spread PEACE and DEMOCRACY and instead spread COLD BLOODED MURDER there is a difference. This so-called "war on terrorism" is said to protect american freedom, peace, liberty and justice." The american flag is supposed to represent these things, and it is believed that american soldiers are supposed to uphold these principles. How can one respect these ideas or believe americas story when those who are supposed to be fighting oppression are the oppressors? Again, the link I have presented is what the american flag stands for, and truth be told history shows the same thing. This country was founded on bloodshed, deception, greed and thievery; this is what american troops fight for, and this is what the families all over the globe who have experienced oppression from america believe.
First of all you would have to have knowledge of every war, and I am POSITIVE that you do NOT have knowledge pertaining to every war. Why? Because so many wars have taken place no accurate number exists. So many wars are taking place behind the scenes (especially in Afrika) they don't get reported.
No one has implied that the murder of innocents is strickly american phenomena, but when a country is supposed to spread PEACE and DEMOCRACY and instead spread COLD BLOODED MURDER there is a difference. This so-called "war on terrorism" is said to protect american freedom, peace, liberty and justice." The american flag is supposed to represent these things, and it is believed that american soldiers are supposed to uphold these principles. How can one respect these ideas or believe americas story when those who are supposed to be fighting oppression are the oppressors? Again, the link I have presented is what the american flag stands for, and truth be told history shows the same thing. This country was founded on bloodshed, deception, greed and thievery; this is what american troops fight for, and this is what the families all over the globe who have experienced oppression from america believe.
No one has knowledge of every war, so you can be POSITIVE that I dont. I can be positive you dont. I think we can both be positive that wars are not clean-cut "play by the rules" events throughout history. From Greece to Rome, Africa to the Middle East and of course Western wars and conquests involve plenty of innocent blood shed, raping of innocent women and subjection of indiginous people. I say "blame war" because this is what happens in war and you don't need to be a history major or General to understand the collateral damage that accompanies so called fair rules of engagement.
Agreed, and while I simply say "blame war" I do not say these consequences of war are acceptable. Those who were involved in this massacre should be brought to justice.
Id hope you wouldnt let the actions of a small number of American troops characterize the 2.5 million people who sere in our military as 'oppressors.' in any sense besides that they have been sent to occupy and police which is oppressive in nature. Most are noble and admirable in their efforts to serve our country and respect Iraqis.
This country like many has a shady history. Those all over the globe who have experienced American oppression have a right to bring up your point. One of Americas ideals is freedom of speech, and another one is holding people accountable for their actions and punishing those who arent doing the right thing. The marines involved in this massacre will be brought to justice as will anyone on top involved in a coverup.
Agreed, and while I simply say "blame war" I do not say these consequences of war are acceptable. Those who were involved in this massacre should be brought to justice.
Id hope you wouldnt let the actions of a small number of American troops characterize the 2.5 million people who sere in our military as 'oppressors.' in any sense besides that they have been sent to occupy and police which is oppressive in nature. Most are noble and admirable in their efforts to serve our country and respect Iraqis.
This country like many has a shady history. Those all over the globe who have experienced American oppression have a right to bring up your point. One of Americas ideals is freedom of speech, and another one is holding people accountable for their actions and punishing those who arent doing the right thing. The marines involved in this massacre will be brought to justice as will anyone on top involved in a coverup.
No one is implying that war in itself IS a clean-cut "play by the rules" event, HOWEVER if your mission is to bring freedom, liberty etc it should be (or it should be as close as possible.) Do you understand the difference between going to war, conquering a nation for land, and spreading the influence of your empire like the Romans and Mongols compared to going to war to fight so-called terrorism and to spread peace and liberty? If you cannot grasp the MOTIVES why are you even comparing this war and this country to other wars and countries?
Collateral damage? Why do you have issues with calling this for what it is? COLD BLOODED MURDER. This is what happens when a country goes to war to LIBERATE and spread democracy to the oppressed? The ones fighting for freedom and liberty slay innocent people, torture, rape, mutilate and insult them on purpose?
Why bring them to justice when you can blame war? Yes, blame war, sweep it under the rug, it is only collateral damage, this is what happens...
The 2.5 million people who currently serve (my family members included) are simply pawns who are expendible. A small number of american troops? EVERY TROOP IN IRAQ IS IN IRAQ ILLEGALLY. So I am POSITIVE your number is cut down in size. BTW, the people who have lost family members because of "collateral damage", and the price of war DO characterize the american millitary as oppressors.
Other countries also have red, white and blue in their flags but are they relevent? NO! We are talking about america and its actions against other countries. We are talking about a country that is supposed to stand for freedom, peace, unity, etc. We are talking about a country that promotes these ideas, but doesn't practice what it preaches. We are talking about a country where people like you place more emphasis on a piece of cloth instead of a human life.
Yes, but people like you would probably ridicule and condemn them for burning a piece of cloth that represents the ones who have oppressed them.
Surely, you do NOT believe these things you type.....
And what of the many incidents that have gone unreported or have not been investigated? :dead:
Collateral damage? Why do you have issues with calling this for what it is? COLD BLOODED MURDER. This is what happens when a country goes to war to LIBERATE and spread democracy to the oppressed? The ones fighting for freedom and liberty slay innocent people, torture, rape, mutilate and insult them on purpose?
Why bring them to justice when you can blame war? Yes, blame war, sweep it under the rug, it is only collateral damage, this is what happens...
The 2.5 million people who currently serve (my family members included) are simply pawns who are expendible. A small number of american troops? EVERY TROOP IN IRAQ IS IN IRAQ ILLEGALLY. So I am POSITIVE your number is cut down in size. BTW, the people who have lost family members because of "collateral damage", and the price of war DO characterize the american millitary as oppressors.
Other countries also have red, white and blue in their flags but are they relevent? NO! We are talking about america and its actions against other countries. We are talking about a country that is supposed to stand for freedom, peace, unity, etc. We are talking about a country that promotes these ideas, but doesn't practice what it preaches. We are talking about a country where people like you place more emphasis on a piece of cloth instead of a human life.
Yes, but people like you would probably ridicule and condemn them for burning a piece of cloth that represents the ones who have oppressed them.
Surely, you do NOT believe these things you type.....
And what of the many incidents that have gone unreported or have not been investigated? :dead:
And I can't recall the US Constitution saying flag burning is ILLEGAL. Also, you are WRONG. It IS protected by the constitution until the constitution is AMMENDED. The judges who ruled in favor for those charged with the crime can die and go to hell 15 times backwards and guess what? The person will STILL have protection under the Constitution, and the judges do NOT have the power to change this.
I understand the difference between going to war, conquering a nation for land, and spreading the influence of empire like the Romans and Mongols compared to going to war to fight so-called terrorism and spread peace and liberty which in either case gives no justification for slaughtering and raping innocent people. Do soldiers on the ground consider motives or focus on what they are ordered to do and/or their own survival?
You could call it that. This is what happens when countries go to war regardless of motives.
As I said earlier this is a consequence of war but those who participated in this massacre should be brought to justice. This is what will happen in America. I never said to sweep anything under the rug...
Refresh your memory from my last post:
We are talking about a country that is supposed to stand for freedom, peace, unity, etc...which promotes these ideas, and, at times, doesnt practice what it preaches. We are also talking about troops from one country killing innocent civilians from another. We are talking about events which happen when war happens.
I never placed more empahasis on a piece of cloth instead of human life but I appreciate you framing it to look that way.
I would not ridicule and condemn them for burning a piece of cloth that represents the ones who have oppressed them but I appreciate you framing it to look that way. People in the US are protected under the first ammendment to do so. People in other countries can probly do so too but many can't burn their own.
Like unknown wars in Africa, incidents like this will go unreported or not be investigated as many atrocities do.
You could call it that. This is what happens when countries go to war regardless of motives.
As I said earlier this is a consequence of war but those who participated in this massacre should be brought to justice. This is what will happen in America. I never said to sweep anything under the rug...
Refresh your memory from my last post:
We are talking about a country that is supposed to stand for freedom, peace, unity, etc...which promotes these ideas, and, at times, doesnt practice what it preaches. We are also talking about troops from one country killing innocent civilians from another. We are talking about events which happen when war happens.
I never placed more empahasis on a piece of cloth instead of human life but I appreciate you framing it to look that way.
I would not ridicule and condemn them for burning a piece of cloth that represents the ones who have oppressed them but I appreciate you framing it to look that way. People in the US are protected under the first ammendment to do so. People in other countries can probly do so too but many can't burn their own.
Like unknown wars in Africa, incidents like this will go unreported or not be investigated as many atrocities do.
1. How in the HELL can you go find another country if you DON'T leave (or at least look into leaving)? :dead:
2. What would be the PURPOSE of finding another country if the intent is to NOT leave, but STAY here? :dead:
3. What in the HELL does he want people to do AFTER they have found another country? :dead:
2. What would be the PURPOSE of finding another country if the intent is to NOT leave, but STAY here? :dead:
3. What in the HELL does he want people to do AFTER they have found another country? :dead:
To answer your question soldiers on the ground do BOTH. Some consider the motives of the government (and have protested in many forms), and others simply do what they need to do to live another day. Were the soldiers involved in this bloodshed considering motives or doing what they were ordered to do?
You have countries that have gone to war and treat the prisoners and captives with respect and dignity. To assume all countries who have gone to war practice acts of barbarism is lunacy. Also, I am not implying that these things DON'T happen, what I am saying is they should NOT happen period, but if these acts do occur the culprits should NOT be the ones who are promoting peace, justice and freedom.
You are sweeping it under the rug, and you have done so in the past. Why not hold the president accountable for this massacre? Why not hold him responsible for the hundreds of thousands of innocent people who have died in this war?
NO REFRESH YOUR MEMORY. YOU WENT BACK AND EDITED YOUR POST AFTER I REPLIED TO IT. I CUT AND PASTED EVERYTHING YOU SAID AND I RESPONDED TO IT. DO NOT ATTEMPT TO MAKE IT SEEM AS IF I MISSED SOMETHING BECAUSE I DID NOT. YOU WENT BACK AND EDITED THE POST, AND IF YOU LIE AND SAID YOU DIDN'T WE'LL ASK A MOD TO POST THE LOG. LOOK AT THE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE TWO QUOTES. THE FIRST IS FROM THE MOST RECENT POST (CONTAINING TYPOS), AND THE OTHER IS FROM YOUR EDITED POST:
You are attempting to make a mockery of reality and you are attempting to take me for a fool. I will NOT allow you to do either of the two so cut the bullshit, man. In your original post you made NO mention of nobility, police enforcement etc, so don't make it seem as if I am overlooking something.
FOR EVERYONE ELSE READING ,THIS IS ONE OF THE REASONS WHY I CHOP A PERSONS POST UP. PEOPLE LIKE MADDOG (AND MCLEANHATCH) WILL ATTEMPT TO EDIT THE POSTS THEY MAKE AND PASS IT OFF AS IF YOU OVERLOOKED THEIR WORDS BECAUSE THEY HAD A STRONG POINT OR SAID SOMETHING REMOTELY SPECTACULAR. DON'T FALL FOR IT.
Yes, you do.
Yes, you do.
You don't understand the question.
You have countries that have gone to war and treat the prisoners and captives with respect and dignity. To assume all countries who have gone to war practice acts of barbarism is lunacy. Also, I am not implying that these things DON'T happen, what I am saying is they should NOT happen period, but if these acts do occur the culprits should NOT be the ones who are promoting peace, justice and freedom.
You are sweeping it under the rug, and you have done so in the past. Why not hold the president accountable for this massacre? Why not hold him responsible for the hundreds of thousands of innocent people who have died in this war?
NO REFRESH YOUR MEMORY. YOU WENT BACK AND EDITED YOUR POST AFTER I REPLIED TO IT. I CUT AND PASTED EVERYTHING YOU SAID AND I RESPONDED TO IT. DO NOT ATTEMPT TO MAKE IT SEEM AS IF I MISSED SOMETHING BECAUSE I DID NOT. YOU WENT BACK AND EDITED THE POST, AND IF YOU LIE AND SAID YOU DIDN'T WE'LL ASK A MOD TO POST THE LOG. LOOK AT THE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE TWO QUOTES. THE FIRST IS FROM THE MOST RECENT POST (CONTAINING TYPOS), AND THE OTHER IS FROM YOUR EDITED POST:
You are attempting to make a mockery of reality and you are attempting to take me for a fool. I will NOT allow you to do either of the two so cut the bullshit, man. In your original post you made NO mention of nobility, police enforcement etc, so don't make it seem as if I am overlooking something.
FOR EVERYONE ELSE READING ,THIS IS ONE OF THE REASONS WHY I CHOP A PERSONS POST UP. PEOPLE LIKE MADDOG (AND MCLEANHATCH) WILL ATTEMPT TO EDIT THE POSTS THEY MAKE AND PASS IT OFF AS IF YOU OVERLOOKED THEIR WORDS BECAUSE THEY HAD A STRONG POINT OR SAID SOMETHING REMOTELY SPECTACULAR. DON'T FALL FOR IT.
Yes, you do.
Yes, you do.
You don't understand the question.
Yes Im sure the soldiers in this incident were thinking about the motives for why were are in Iraq rather than what is going on, taking orders and living another day. To answer your question again I dont think motives have anything to do with any of this and a small group of soldiers either followed orders or did what in their opinion on the ground they had to do to live another day.
You have countries that have gone to war and treat prisoners and captives with respect and dignity (like the US) and you have a small group of soldiers/officers from that country who disobey. And like you said, you have incidents like this not being reported. To assume all countries who have gone to war practice acts of barbarism is lunacy if you are viewing this from chain of command but not on the accords of individuals.
To answer: You can hold the President accountable for the War in Iraq.
Maybe you could clear up what the hell you are talking about here. To my knowledge I have not edited either post and you missed something. The mispellings you speak of are merely from typing what I said over and missing a few characters. The post before I do not remember editing so I have sent 2-0 Sixx a PM about the log to clear up this idea you have conjured up that you are infalliable and couldnt miss/address a statement...
If you would stick to the issues instead of drawing attention to some spectacular lie you made up youd have a lot more time to debate besides somehow determining I regard cloth higher than human life because war crimes happen during wars and I think the people who participate should be punished!
You have countries that have gone to war and treat prisoners and captives with respect and dignity (like the US) and you have a small group of soldiers/officers from that country who disobey. And like you said, you have incidents like this not being reported. To assume all countries who have gone to war practice acts of barbarism is lunacy if you are viewing this from chain of command but not on the accords of individuals.
To answer: You can hold the President accountable for the War in Iraq.
Maybe you could clear up what the hell you are talking about here. To my knowledge I have not edited either post and you missed something. The mispellings you speak of are merely from typing what I said over and missing a few characters. The post before I do not remember editing so I have sent 2-0 Sixx a PM about the log to clear up this idea you have conjured up that you are infalliable and couldnt miss/address a statement...
If you would stick to the issues instead of drawing attention to some spectacular lie you made up youd have a lot more time to debate besides somehow determining I regard cloth higher than human life because war crimes happen during wars and I think the people who participate should be punished!
I don't know if your words are deeply rooted in sarcasm or reality, but fact of the matter is, these soldiers (murderers) were NOT doing what they had to do to live another day. This was NOT an accident. This was a PLANNED assault on a group of unarmed individuals and an attempted coverup by the perps.
Since when has the US treated its prisoners with respect and dignity? Have you been living under a rock for the past 3 to 4 years? Sicking dogs on prisoners is treating them with respect and dignity? Putting collars on prisoners is respect and dignity? Staking naked men on top of each other and taking pictures is respect and dignity? Attacking the religion and scriptures of the prisoners (burning the quran, shitting on the quran) is respect and dignity? Tell me kind sir, in what world do YOU live in?
http://www.rotten.com/library/crime/prison/abu-ghraib/
What about incidents happening at Abu Gharib? What about the fact that these atrocities were encouraged by those in high positions of power? Stop limiting the scope of mistreatment and wake up. You and I both know that this country endorses the actions of the soldiers, but for some reason you want to turn a blind eye (as you usually do) to the entire ordeal.
How?
Homie, it is in black and white.
See the above.
You have THREE different versions of the section in question. The FIRST version is what I originally quoted. In that version you mentioned NOTHING about people being policed, admiration etc. The SECOND version is your "retyped" version, but the third is the edited.
YOU were the one who drew attention to it by stating:"Refresh your memory from my last post", and EDITING it to make it appear as if your B.S. was overlooked. You drew attention to a statement that has THREE distinct versions floating around, and how is it that you simply retyped the same thing yet ONE specific typo exists in ALL THREE VERSIONS? You want us to believe that you made the same typo even when you retyped it? LMAO!!!!
For one, I don't consider this "debate." I consider this an exchange of ideas. I am not presenting a fact, value or policy case, but if you WANT to debate this issue, go ahead and come up with a resolution so we can get started. Also, you do place more value on the cloth than a human life.
Since when has the US treated its prisoners with respect and dignity? Have you been living under a rock for the past 3 to 4 years? Sicking dogs on prisoners is treating them with respect and dignity? Putting collars on prisoners is respect and dignity? Staking naked men on top of each other and taking pictures is respect and dignity? Attacking the religion and scriptures of the prisoners (burning the quran, shitting on the quran) is respect and dignity? Tell me kind sir, in what world do YOU live in?
http://www.rotten.com/library/crime/prison/abu-ghraib/
What about incidents happening at Abu Gharib? What about the fact that these atrocities were encouraged by those in high positions of power? Stop limiting the scope of mistreatment and wake up. You and I both know that this country endorses the actions of the soldiers, but for some reason you want to turn a blind eye (as you usually do) to the entire ordeal.
How?
Homie, it is in black and white.
See the above.
You have THREE different versions of the section in question. The FIRST version is what I originally quoted. In that version you mentioned NOTHING about people being policed, admiration etc. The SECOND version is your "retyped" version, but the third is the edited.
YOU were the one who drew attention to it by stating:"Refresh your memory from my last post", and EDITING it to make it appear as if your B.S. was overlooked. You drew attention to a statement that has THREE distinct versions floating around, and how is it that you simply retyped the same thing yet ONE specific typo exists in ALL THREE VERSIONS? You want us to believe that you made the same typo even when you retyped it? LMAO!!!!
For one, I don't consider this "debate." I consider this an exchange of ideas. I am not presenting a fact, value or policy case, but if you WANT to debate this issue, go ahead and come up with a resolution so we can get started. Also, you do place more value on the cloth than a human life.
im not tryin to get into a 9 year arguement
but i wouldnt burn the flag
even tho some of the things people say this flag stands for is bad, i think it means a lot to our ancestors who were in the country.
i mean britian was tryin to control the colonies, people got pissed, and rose up to take on a much bigger force, and won.
in a sence, this is probably what a lot of you want, the people of america to rise up against our government now.
i would think the flag would symbolize that to you also
im also in the US Navy. not on purpose tho, believe me, i kinda had to join.
i do respect the flag, and even tho i dont agree with a lot of the things this country does, i still would rather live here than anywhere else.
and its good people have problems with this government and instead of leave they speak up, problems never get solved if no one brings them up
but i wouldnt burn the flag
even tho some of the things people say this flag stands for is bad, i think it means a lot to our ancestors who were in the country.
i mean britian was tryin to control the colonies, people got pissed, and rose up to take on a much bigger force, and won.
in a sence, this is probably what a lot of you want, the people of america to rise up against our government now.
i would think the flag would symbolize that to you also
im also in the US Navy. not on purpose tho, believe me, i kinda had to join.
i do respect the flag, and even tho i dont agree with a lot of the things this country does, i still would rather live here than anywhere else.
and its good people have problems with this government and instead of leave they speak up, problems never get solved if no one brings them up