What motivates atheists?
- Thread starter bayGIANTS
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@H,
zzz
Back @ Nitro,
It seems to me that the whole "if I was an atheist, I would just go out and have fun, go off and kill people" etc argument is usually put forth by non-Atheists.
Only an extremely religious person would say that their only motivation is God, Heaven, etc. Those types often get shit from the less devout.
And if motivation is not simply a matter of trying to seek religion, which it isnt, (since very few would list their life's motivation as only religious attainment or progress) then one can simply remove religion from the equation and give more weight to the other motivating factors.
This is a difficult question for another reason: what constitutes religious motivation? Is it a quest for knowledge? If so, then many atheists could be considered on the same sort of path. Is it a way to understand and explain the world around you? If so, then many atheists would also be said to be on the same path.
I think to really get into this question you would have to explain what qualifies and constitutes religious motivation, and even the nature of religion itself.
zzz
Back @ Nitro,
It seems to me that the whole "if I was an atheist, I would just go out and have fun, go off and kill people" etc argument is usually put forth by non-Atheists.
Only an extremely religious person would say that their only motivation is God, Heaven, etc. Those types often get shit from the less devout.
And if motivation is not simply a matter of trying to seek religion, which it isnt, (since very few would list their life's motivation as only religious attainment or progress) then one can simply remove religion from the equation and give more weight to the other motivating factors.
This is a difficult question for another reason: what constitutes religious motivation? Is it a quest for knowledge? If so, then many atheists could be considered on the same sort of path. Is it a way to understand and explain the world around you? If so, then many atheists would also be said to be on the same path.
I think to really get into this question you would have to explain what qualifies and constitutes religious motivation, and even the nature of religion itself.
actuall you could be the smartest mother fucker on the planet, and still feel empty inside of you. What you just said could lead someone into depression, because they will feel they have nothing else to live for because they are, of course, the smartest person. I think they are motivated to prove just more that god doesn't exist, rather to prove that the hopes and faith people put into this god, is irrational. To see a man claiming to speak to an invisible being is like a challenge to an educated atheist. Just me.
You aren't sleep, and if you are wake your ass up. This man wanted an atheist perspective and here you are bashing christianity as usual. If we wanted to read christian bashing we would read another thread, but I'm trying to read what the true atheists are saying and not what an apostate is talking about.
Ouch What? You're acting like the guy from "Not another teen movie" always clapping at the wrong time. The ONLY thing wrong with what WHITE DEVIL posted is the fact that he referenced "Christians" as opposed to being more general and just saying "religous people". I personally have no problem with what he said. I don't neccesarily agree with it (which I will get into when time permits), but he was not at all out of line. I say this, and I don't particularly even like the guy.
@H,
As you flood & spam this thread with non-contributing posts about how I flooded / am spamming it.
Great job sport.
@Nitro,
I suppose it could be rephrased as "highly religious". Labeling just Christians as that way is intellectually dubious at best, but we do *still* live in a majority Christian society, and thus they are often the examples given for the ills of religion.
The whole "Christian" part was more of an afterthought to my original point. The fact that it got quoted makes it seem as if the entire post is about the ills of Christianity when in fact it isnt.
A simple breakdown:
Religious people often say "If you are an atheist, you either:"
In my opinion, however, ethics and morality predate religion and also are not incumbent on religion for existence. Kohlberg's stages of moral development, (probably the most popular/simple model of morality http://faculty.plts.edu/gpence/html/kohlberg.htm ) beginning with absolute self-interest and ending with a comprehensive view of society and a grander gestalt into which one fits, do not require any sort of religious beliefs or views.
This is an incomplete response but this topic lends itself to being extremely tangential.
As you flood & spam this thread with non-contributing posts about how I flooded / am spamming it.
Great job sport.
@Nitro,
I suppose it could be rephrased as "highly religious". Labeling just Christians as that way is intellectually dubious at best, but we do *still* live in a majority Christian society, and thus they are often the examples given for the ills of religion.
The whole "Christian" part was more of an afterthought to my original point. The fact that it got quoted makes it seem as if the entire post is about the ills of Christianity when in fact it isnt.
A simple breakdown:
Religious people often say "If you are an atheist, you either:"
- Have no reason to consider others and thus will eventually go on a nihilistic, murderous rampage or live an immoral life full of small sins
- Will live in some sort of continuous "pleasure mission" in which you seek to make your life as enjoyable as possible
In my opinion, however, ethics and morality predate religion and also are not incumbent on religion for existence. Kohlberg's stages of moral development, (probably the most popular/simple model of morality http://faculty.plts.edu/gpence/html/kohlberg.htm ) beginning with absolute self-interest and ending with a comprehensive view of society and a grander gestalt into which one fits, do not require any sort of religious beliefs or views.
This is an incomplete response but this topic lends itself to being extremely tangential.
TONY206 said:
So atheists can't believe in some form of life after death?
And motivation....you don't have to be religious to care about others, yourself, or life. My motivation was to do better than I had the day before. I like making people happy and helping people out, so that's my motivation, to make everyone's time on this planet (who's not a fucking retard) just a little bit better.
But on that path, I found so many retards it's hard for me to be nice to people now.
If you NEED to "know" you have a life after this one, to do good in this one, you are pathetic, and should go to your "hell" for only being good to get rewarded, not just to do it.
Heres my contribution....
I'll address things that were not directed my way (it happens to me all the time so now I'm gonna have some fun.)
No matter which label you use, your words are still demeaning and hostile towards some that are religious, and your claims are not applicable to all who may be "highly religious".
No, we *still* live in a society that CLAIMS to be a christian society, but actions speak volumes. Look at the "general" christian doctrine, and chances are the actions of american citizens will not be in accordance to that doctrine. So, the question needs to be asked -- do we live in a christian society, or a society where people claim to be something they are not?
In any case, you (and other atheists) are creating a problem when you blame the ills of religion on christianity and seek to justify it by citing it as the majority. Because it is the majority, that does not mean YOU have follow the blaming trend. Atheists believe men are responsible for their actions and there is no god, or spirit or magical being dictating any of this. Since atheists believe this, why not hold each person accountable for the ills of religion instead of blaming religion as a whole or one specific religion for all of it? You mention what christians do, and how they label, but atheists and apostates are constantly doing the same thing. In fact, in this very thread, you have done what you accuse christians of doing.
I never quoted you, and whoever did needs to explain why. However, your first post was filled with the ills of christianity. Here look at your statements:
Yet you forget that ANYONE can be seen as being self-centered. Again, why mention christians in this way when we both know some atheists, muslims, and hindus are self-centered? What about religions that ARE self centered such as some forms of Satanism? The way you are describing christianity isn't too far off from it.
Yet, you forget the fact that a large portion of the so-called christian population does NOT believe in a hell AND have conflicting views about free will and predestination. But what do you do? You subjugate christianity and pick apart what you want in hopes of proving your point. Also, what is your take on christians who are not so much as concerned with their own possible eternal torment, but concerned with the eternal punishment of others? Do these people do evangelical work? Do they start missionaries? Do they hold food drives and do alter calls? If they do all of these things and do them because they deem it as Gods will, or because they have a love for their fellow man, you can't say it is self-serving or done to get out of hell card.
And this is speaking from your experience, but does it hold true for your family members? According to what you've posted in the past I would not say it doesn't, so why are you limiting your perspective? Is proving a point that important?
Yes.
There is something inherent in HUMANITY that causes people to do what you said. What you said is NOT exclusive to christianity, and if you can prove that it is, I'll leave this board for good. Do you honestly believe some muslims are not that way? Is it something in Islam that causes them to do so? In the case of christianity, it is the person interpreting the doctrine/dogma and not the religion that is responsible for that type of behavior. Christianity does not say "devalue the opinions and viewpoints of the non-initiated. How can you preach the Gospel and do as God has commanded if you DON'T value the opinions and viewpoints of others? Instead of truly looking at yourself and the fact that your experience is LIMITED, you seek to pass the buck and blame the religion, but of course, you don't see a problem with this.
SOME religious people say this. Some people consider me religious, but have I ever said an atheist would live a life of sin and nihilism? No, you see me placing more emphasis on what so-called CHRISTIANS are doing, and how they are probably on the way to hell quicker than an atheist. Have you seen me implying that the atheist life is full of pleasure and gratification? No. 206 is an activist, he gets out and he helps people, and although that may be gratifying to him, he is helping OTHERS. He is putting the needs of others before himself, and the gratification that he does get (which is not tangible) is the fact that he helped or stood up for what he believed in.
Now, can you provide me with examples of religious people on this board doing what you have claimed? After you do so, I have a couple of questions for you to answer. Why is it that the majority of religious threads often start out with atheists bashing and ridiculing christians? Why do they claim to be superior in intellect, ridicule christians, but expect christians to take the high road when they are ridiculed? Should atheists not be held to a standard? Should they not conform to anything?
I agree with this somewhat.
And I don't believe anyone here has implied that you need religion (or christianity) to be good. Do you need a priest to tell you murder is not right? No, murder is inherently wrong, and in most cultures it is generally frowned upon. The same can be said for theft, adultry etc. You have people that have NEVER heard of religion (specifically christianity) and these people are leading moral and ethical lives. (BTW, I wrote an essay on Kohlberg's model, and if I still have it I might post it up. Right now, I'm currently reading Derrick Bell's ETHICAL AMBITION. If you have the chance pick it up.)
I'll address things that were not directed my way (it happens to me all the time so now I'm gonna have some fun.)
No matter which label you use, your words are still demeaning and hostile towards some that are religious, and your claims are not applicable to all who may be "highly religious".
No, we *still* live in a society that CLAIMS to be a christian society, but actions speak volumes. Look at the "general" christian doctrine, and chances are the actions of american citizens will not be in accordance to that doctrine. So, the question needs to be asked -- do we live in a christian society, or a society where people claim to be something they are not?
In any case, you (and other atheists) are creating a problem when you blame the ills of religion on christianity and seek to justify it by citing it as the majority. Because it is the majority, that does not mean YOU have follow the blaming trend. Atheists believe men are responsible for their actions and there is no god, or spirit or magical being dictating any of this. Since atheists believe this, why not hold each person accountable for the ills of religion instead of blaming religion as a whole or one specific religion for all of it? You mention what christians do, and how they label, but atheists and apostates are constantly doing the same thing. In fact, in this very thread, you have done what you accuse christians of doing.
I never quoted you, and whoever did needs to explain why. However, your first post was filled with the ills of christianity. Here look at your statements:
Yet you forget that ANYONE can be seen as being self-centered. Again, why mention christians in this way when we both know some atheists, muslims, and hindus are self-centered? What about religions that ARE self centered such as some forms of Satanism? The way you are describing christianity isn't too far off from it.
Yet, you forget the fact that a large portion of the so-called christian population does NOT believe in a hell AND have conflicting views about free will and predestination. But what do you do? You subjugate christianity and pick apart what you want in hopes of proving your point. Also, what is your take on christians who are not so much as concerned with their own possible eternal torment, but concerned with the eternal punishment of others? Do these people do evangelical work? Do they start missionaries? Do they hold food drives and do alter calls? If they do all of these things and do them because they deem it as Gods will, or because they have a love for their fellow man, you can't say it is self-serving or done to get out of hell card.
And this is speaking from your experience, but does it hold true for your family members? According to what you've posted in the past I would not say it doesn't, so why are you limiting your perspective? Is proving a point that important?
Yes.
There is something inherent in HUMANITY that causes people to do what you said. What you said is NOT exclusive to christianity, and if you can prove that it is, I'll leave this board for good. Do you honestly believe some muslims are not that way? Is it something in Islam that causes them to do so? In the case of christianity, it is the person interpreting the doctrine/dogma and not the religion that is responsible for that type of behavior. Christianity does not say "devalue the opinions and viewpoints of the non-initiated. How can you preach the Gospel and do as God has commanded if you DON'T value the opinions and viewpoints of others? Instead of truly looking at yourself and the fact that your experience is LIMITED, you seek to pass the buck and blame the religion, but of course, you don't see a problem with this.
SOME religious people say this. Some people consider me religious, but have I ever said an atheist would live a life of sin and nihilism? No, you see me placing more emphasis on what so-called CHRISTIANS are doing, and how they are probably on the way to hell quicker than an atheist. Have you seen me implying that the atheist life is full of pleasure and gratification? No. 206 is an activist, he gets out and he helps people, and although that may be gratifying to him, he is helping OTHERS. He is putting the needs of others before himself, and the gratification that he does get (which is not tangible) is the fact that he helped or stood up for what he believed in.
Now, can you provide me with examples of religious people on this board doing what you have claimed? After you do so, I have a couple of questions for you to answer. Why is it that the majority of religious threads often start out with atheists bashing and ridiculing christians? Why do they claim to be superior in intellect, ridicule christians, but expect christians to take the high road when they are ridiculed? Should atheists not be held to a standard? Should they not conform to anything?
I agree with this somewhat.
And I don't believe anyone here has implied that you need religion (or christianity) to be good. Do you need a priest to tell you murder is not right? No, murder is inherently wrong, and in most cultures it is generally frowned upon. The same can be said for theft, adultry etc. You have people that have NEVER heard of religion (specifically christianity) and these people are leading moral and ethical lives. (BTW, I wrote an essay on Kohlberg's model, and if I still have it I might post it up. Right now, I'm currently reading Derrick Bell's ETHICAL AMBITION. If you have the chance pick it up.)
Religion bashing was a pre-requisite for this thread. The original post suggested that religious followers have good reason for being moral and appreciating life whereas atheists do not. In replying, suggesting that athiests have an even better reason (that we only live once so we should make the best of it) requires the athiest to knock the religious follower off his high-horse and refute the 'you have to believe in God to have purpose' assertion. Unfortunately, based on the current U.S. paradigm (christianity running rampant), Christians are the target of the greatest amount of bashing. Unless specifically stated though, when I use the term christian you can translate it into any theistic religious follower. Anyone who thinks that belief in their God makes them better than others - if that isn't self-centred behaviour, then what is?
You know what my point is Heresy. Regardless of whether they are Christians or not, they perform acts 'in the name of God' and thus what differentiates them from "real" Christians? Current day Americans have merely manipulated the doctrine to suit their own desires, just as has been done numerous times in the past.
I know that current day Americans are giving 'real' christians a bad rep. Belief in God is more of a trendy belief nowadays, people all want to be sheep and believe in God in order to be part of the flock. Thinking for themselves is too daunting a task to undertake.
George Bush is not a christian, we have established this fact already. However, when he uses words like 'God told me to end the tyranny in Iraq', this garners the support of christians country-wide. These people begin to think 'Oh Bush, the good christian, let's vote for him and support his war'. As a result, Bush gets into office and he goes to war. Regardless of the individuals beliefs, whether they are true christians or not, these acts are still being supported by 'God'.
I know that current day Americans are giving 'real' christians a bad rep. Belief in God is more of a trendy belief nowadays, people all want to be sheep and believe in God in order to be part of the flock. Thinking for themselves is too daunting a task to undertake.
George Bush is not a christian, we have established this fact already. However, when he uses words like 'God told me to end the tyranny in Iraq', this garners the support of christians country-wide. These people begin to think 'Oh Bush, the good christian, let's vote for him and support his war'. As a result, Bush gets into office and he goes to war. Regardless of the individuals beliefs, whether they are true christians or not, these acts are still being supported by 'God'.