Is that right Rippa? I didn't know this is how it works. Can you please refer to where Marx or Engles said this? Maybe it's in the communist manifesto? 
USSR - Communist? or a form of state capitalism?
- Thread starter Mac Allah
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Lenin explains in the "State and Revolution", and Marx explains in "Critique of the Gotha Program", it is impossible to jump straight from capitalism to communism. Remember, it's a process.
As I stated before, the only incentive to work harder under Capitalism is "work so you can pay your rent, your mortgage, your interest on credit card and school loans, your over-priced food, healthcare, transportation, and entertainment, and so on or starve and be homeless". That is the only incentive capitalism offers you can you and I. Why work more efficiently at work if you know you have to be there for 8 hours no matter what? Just as I was typing messages through out the day at work, I didn't give a fuck. I had to be there till 5, no matter what.
Under socialism, the incentive to come up with more efficient ways to do things is that we'd have to work less time to do the same amount of work. "The amount of NECESSARY labor needed to produce the things we NEED" like food, housing, etc. would gradually decrease so that eventually the working hours would shorten significanlty. Of course as humans we would not be lazy and sit around...humans are curious, exploratory, and want to learn, invent, etc. You and I, I'm sure, would spend most of our free time learning. Our free time would be spent creating ever better works of art, scientific research, cures for diseases, etc. After a period of time, the new generations will not even know what it was like under capitalism, and the productivity of labor will be tremendoulsy high.
What's wrong with the ideology? I assume you don't have a problem with "proletariat" - "is that class of society which does not have ownership of the means of production. Therefore, the only source of income for proletarians is wage labor. "
So, I assume your problem is with the "selfish-pig". Going back to what you said about your parents...they are not the "selfish-pig", they are the working class. As you stated, their income is amoungst the top 5%, but the costs of living where they are obviously lower them to the point of middle class.
When I say "Selfish-pig" I mean the elite group of people, the REAL rich individuals who control this country and exploit the working class. The wealth created by all these workers is not shared equally, the corporations and billionnaires keep a very unequal share for themselves. Bill Gates? A handful of people are making the money, pulling the strings and only care about themselves and making their pockets fatter while millions starve, are homeless, and unemployed. They don't care about the average man...all they care about are themselves. Under communsim, or socialism, the surplus wealth produced by working people would be used to provide better wages, benefits, healthcare, education, safety conditions, new technology that could reduce the working day, etc. etc. etc.
I don't understand what you mean. Can you elaborate?
As I stated before, the only incentive to work harder under Capitalism is "work so you can pay your rent, your mortgage, your interest on credit card and school loans, your over-priced food, healthcare, transportation, and entertainment, and so on or starve and be homeless". That is the only incentive capitalism offers you can you and I. Why work more efficiently at work if you know you have to be there for 8 hours no matter what? Just as I was typing messages through out the day at work, I didn't give a fuck. I had to be there till 5, no matter what.
Under socialism, the incentive to come up with more efficient ways to do things is that we'd have to work less time to do the same amount of work. "The amount of NECESSARY labor needed to produce the things we NEED" like food, housing, etc. would gradually decrease so that eventually the working hours would shorten significanlty. Of course as humans we would not be lazy and sit around...humans are curious, exploratory, and want to learn, invent, etc. You and I, I'm sure, would spend most of our free time learning. Our free time would be spent creating ever better works of art, scientific research, cures for diseases, etc. After a period of time, the new generations will not even know what it was like under capitalism, and the productivity of labor will be tremendoulsy high.
What's wrong with the ideology? I assume you don't have a problem with "proletariat" - "is that class of society which does not have ownership of the means of production. Therefore, the only source of income for proletarians is wage labor. "
So, I assume your problem is with the "selfish-pig". Going back to what you said about your parents...they are not the "selfish-pig", they are the working class. As you stated, their income is amoungst the top 5%, but the costs of living where they are obviously lower them to the point of middle class.
When I say "Selfish-pig" I mean the elite group of people, the REAL rich individuals who control this country and exploit the working class. The wealth created by all these workers is not shared equally, the corporations and billionnaires keep a very unequal share for themselves. Bill Gates? A handful of people are making the money, pulling the strings and only care about themselves and making their pockets fatter while millions starve, are homeless, and unemployed. They don't care about the average man...all they care about are themselves. Under communsim, or socialism, the surplus wealth produced by working people would be used to provide better wages, benefits, healthcare, education, safety conditions, new technology that could reduce the working day, etc. etc. etc.
I don't understand what you mean. Can you elaborate?
Although not directed to me
That's the negative stereotype people give capitalism. Much like when people give communism a negative stereotype.
Sorry Comrade but what world are you living in? If we're not conditioned from an early age we become monsters. Take for example a child. If he knows you will give him a cookie everytime he asks he will keep asking. If you tell him he has to clean up his room to get the cookie the kid might think it over. But if he knows that Mom will give him an equal piece of the cookie no matter what then he has no incentive to work for the cookie.
just so i dont sound like some corporate fat cat I personally think the government should work for the working class. Remember the governments main purpose should be to serve not be served.
These "selfish-pigs" exist everywhere. Communism, Socialism, Feudalims, etc. The only form of government free from them is Anarchy but Anarchy depends more on human kindness than communism and capitalism combined.
My favorite quote:
All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others. (George Orwell. Animal Farm) clearly defines Stalinism, Maoism, Fidelism, even Americanism, etc, etc.
That's the negative stereotype people give capitalism. Much like when people give communism a negative stereotype.
Sorry Comrade but what world are you living in? If we're not conditioned from an early age we become monsters. Take for example a child. If he knows you will give him a cookie everytime he asks he will keep asking. If you tell him he has to clean up his room to get the cookie the kid might think it over. But if he knows that Mom will give him an equal piece of the cookie no matter what then he has no incentive to work for the cookie.
just so i dont sound like some corporate fat cat I personally think the government should work for the working class. Remember the governments main purpose should be to serve not be served.
These "selfish-pigs" exist everywhere. Communism, Socialism, Feudalims, etc. The only form of government free from them is Anarchy but Anarchy depends more on human kindness than communism and capitalism combined.
My favorite quote:
All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others. (George Orwell. Animal Farm) clearly defines Stalinism, Maoism, Fidelism, even Americanism, etc, etc.
I don't want to sound rude, mainly because your sig is tight, but you need to clarify your comments a bit. "That's the negative stereotype people give capitalism. Much like when people give communism a negative stereotype." Explain please.
LOL, your trippin. Remember comrade, we are taught things, just like we are taught that this is a dog eat dog world.
Remember comrade, the government which is elected does not really have much choice of what policies to follow. When the 3 richest people in the US have a combined wealth equal to more than 115 million ordinary Americans, they are the ones who really run the country. The working class has absolutely no say.
Under socialism on the other hand, the economic resources of the country would not be in private hands, but in the hands of the people. This would be a REAL democracy. They would be able to democratically elect their representatives in government, and at the same time these representatives would have real power over the economy, to really change things. These officials would be subject to immediate recall at any time and these elected officials would not earn any more than a skilled worker, thus eliminating the greed factor.
LOL, your trippin. Remember comrade, we are taught things, just like we are taught that this is a dog eat dog world.
Remember comrade, the government which is elected does not really have much choice of what policies to follow. When the 3 richest people in the US have a combined wealth equal to more than 115 million ordinary Americans, they are the ones who really run the country. The working class has absolutely no say.
Under socialism on the other hand, the economic resources of the country would not be in private hands, but in the hands of the people. This would be a REAL democracy. They would be able to democratically elect their representatives in government, and at the same time these representatives would have real power over the economy, to really change things. These officials would be subject to immediate recall at any time and these elected officials would not earn any more than a skilled worker, thus eliminating the greed factor.
What I meant is go to any average American and ask them why Communism sucks and they'll tell you because it's a totalitarian government where you work for next to nothing. Then go to the Average Russian (Cold War-era) and ask them the same question and they'll tell you Communism is where the worker works for next to nothing while the richer get richer. Same shit different forms of government.
BTW the one with braids...a fucking 8!
There is a difference. One is contioned one is thought. I doubt many parents teach their kids why they should work for the cookie, they condition them to work for the cookie. Also because this world IS dog eat dog is why I find it hard for Communism and Socialism (and Anarchy to work on such a big scale).
This is also why the USSR failed. Much like the wealth oriented US in all Communist countries you have to give all your power up to one of your fellow comrads and he reaps all the benefits for himself. This has happened with all Communist governments on a big scale. Although I'm sure it can be done (communism) I dont see it happening any time soon.
BTW the one with braids...a fucking 8!
There is a difference. One is contioned one is thought. I doubt many parents teach their kids why they should work for the cookie, they condition them to work for the cookie. Also because this world IS dog eat dog is why I find it hard for Communism and Socialism (and Anarchy to work on such a big scale).
This is also why the USSR failed. Much like the wealth oriented US in all Communist countries you have to give all your power up to one of your fellow comrads and he reaps all the benefits for himself. This has happened with all Communist governments on a big scale. Although I'm sure it can be done (communism) I dont see it happening any time soon.
Well, again...remember it's a process. The average american is a dip shit because there is not enough money going in education and/or the government wants it that way. With communism education is the #1 priority.
So what's the alternative? If you dislike communsim, and capitalism either isn't working, or wont last forever, what do you suggest? What's your thoughts?
So what's the alternative? If you dislike communsim, and capitalism either isn't working, or wont last forever, what do you suggest? What's your thoughts?
2-0-Sixx said:
Is that right Rippa? I didn't know this is how it works. Can you please refer to where Marx or Engles said this? Maybe it's in the communist manifesto?
Is that the reason you dodged the basis of my reply?
2-0-Sixx said:
Lets not forget that America isn't the only Capitalist country. These same things have occured in many, if not all, capitalist countries.
Let us also not forget that it wasn't that long ago, in our own capitalist country that things like this occured...
Let us also not forget that it wasn't that long ago, in our own capitalist country that things like this occured...
