The Bitter Lament of a Muslim Woman by 'Jahanara Begum'

[shoowilla]

this is 100% correct, As someone who has spent extended amount of time in arab countires i can vouch for this

Its true it occurs in many places, but where i lived in the Gulf for over half my life i never saw something like this happen. Women where im from are spoiled with their own drivers, cooks and maids, and im not talking about one of each most families that have 3 kids for instance will have atleast 2 maids just for the kids.

It is even present in the islamic doctrine;for example, execution of a woman who has relations with an "infedal" is justifiable by God

huh? Suraht An-Nur Ayat # 2

24:2 The adulterer and the adulteress, scourge ye each one of them (with) a hundred stripes. And let not pity for the twain withhold you from obedience to Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a party of believers witness their punishment.

so heres the thing if a woman committs adultery with a man and neither of them are married they both get 100 lashes. If a woman and a man committ adultery while either one of them is married in the Islamic Sharia they are BOTH to be put to death but you need 4 witnesses i believe for either case, God forgive me if im wrong

24:4 And those who accuse honourable women but bring not four witnesses, scourge them (with) eighty stripes and never (afterward) accept their testimony - They indeed are evil-doers -

Just one of the many inequalities present, in not just Islamic culture, but arab culture as a whole.

Really, because after what i have just posted it showed me something totally different, that the man and the woman get equal punishment. Now some countries for instance like Iran, and Taliban Afghanistan they did opress women, which is a sad thing because the Quran doesnt teach that nor did the prophet s.a.w, Infact people like the taliban could be put in the group "Kharijin" which the prohpet s.a.w talked about them that they will be like the arrow shooting away from the bow (which is Islam) meaning they will completley deviate from the religion.

There is not one middle eastern country/arab country that is not completly corrupted

Cant argue with that. But i can argue about whats corrupted and whats not and thats womans rights.

So where have you lived in these Arabic countries? because clearly it is not Islam that opresses woman but it is cultures that opress women ive gone through this before but i believe True Islam can be truly seen in America and some European countries, thats why woman are converting to Islam like crazy in the US its 4 women to every man, and in some parts of Europe its 7-10 women for every one man. Now if ISLAM was so opressive towards woman then why would all these women convert?

Heres an article i saw last week by the christian science monitor Why European women are turning to Islam

 

[Malkorasoul]

but where i lived in the Gulf for over half my life

Khaleej? Come on now, the gulf countries are where all the rich people are at, When im in lebanon, the only Benz's, Land Rovers, Porches, BMWs, Bentlys etc... (mind you that these are all the latest models), I see ALL have gulf countries represented on the license plate. And according to your observation of muslim women (spoiled was the word you used), you are probably using that to influence your opinion and are most likely refering to the same rich Khaleeji that roll around in 100thousand$ cars.
SO of course women arent gonna have a problem were there is an abundance of money. This rich population is a minority in the middle east, Check the poor areas out, check the middle class areas out. Check the fundamentalist household. Observe normal women Like women that dont have any connections with amirs or sultans. See how their life is.

huh? Suraht An-Nur Ayat # 2

Misunderstanding here, i didnt mean adultery, i meant a single muslim woman, is not permitted to have relations with a single infedal male, and if there is relations, in a lot of cases, the woman is killed and again in most cases by her own family. And this murder is permitted by the islamic doctrine either directly or indirectly. On paper, arab country gov. would not permit this, however there is a lack luster effort to enforce womens rights. And i believe that Islam plays a major role in this.
In contrast to the female situation, It is common to find arab males traveling to more liberal arab countries, Europe, or to the local whore house to get their freek on with women, infedals, other dudes, etc... and guess what, no one there is to stop them, also with various implications derived from their religion, they will feel less guilt.

Really, because after what i have just posted it showed me something totally different, that the man and the woman get equal punishment. Now some countries for instance like Iran, and Taliban Afghanistan they did opress women, which is a sad thing because the Quran doesnt teach that nor did the prophet s.a.w, Infact people like the taliban could be put in the group "Kharijin" which the prohpet s.a.w talked about them that they will be like the arrow shooting away from the bow (which is Islam) meaning they will completley deviate from the religion.

Well you earlier refered to people you personaly knew from each of those countries, However you cannot use that to speak for the whole population. Im assuming that your experiance of the middle east is sheltered which lead you to believe that women and men are treated equal in most arab countires. Because my experiance lead me to a different persepective. Granted the situation is getting better, but the current situation is by no means acceptable.

Cant argue with that. But i can argue about whats corrupted and whats not and thats womans rights.

On paper, women's rights may not be tarnished, but in the minds of the politicians that run each of these countries is. Do you honestly believe that these politicains have the same type of modern opinions as you or me?

So where have you lived in these Arabic countries? because clearly it is not Islam that opresses woman but it is cultures that opress women

The arab culture is HEAVILY influenced by Islam.
So when you say the culture is what opresses women, underneath it all the culture is a product of Islam.
To answer your initial question, i have spent alot of time in Lebanon (im lebanese) and have been to most of the other Levant area countries. My mother lived in UAE for 4 years. So i personally (through my own observations and through my mother) have somewhat of an experiance of the situation regarding women's rights in the arab world.

ive gone through this before but i believe True Islam can be truly seen in America and some European countries, thats why woman are converting to Islam like crazy in the US its 4 women to every man, and in some parts of Europe its 7-10 women for every one man. Now if ISLAM was so opressive towards woman then why would all these women convert?

You say that true islam is practiced correctly mostly in the western world. What happens when an islamic leader living in the middle east is asked where is islam practiced most correctly? I garentee you they're not gonna say "In the Western World". SO the people that live in Mecca, the center of islam, where the quran is broken down and analyzed to the haraket of each letter dont practice islam as correct as the liquor store owner in Detriot? That is a matter of opinion, but logicly people are inclined to believe the islamic clergymen in the land of islam that their villages practice the truest form islam and not you and the western world.

 

[shoowilla]

Come on now, the gulf countries are where all the rich people are at, When im in lebanon, the only Benz's, Land Rovers, Porches, BMWs, Bentlys etc... (mind you that these are all the latest models), I see ALL have gulf countries represented on the license plate. And according to your observation of muslim women (spoiled was the word you used), you are probably using that to influence your opinion and are most likely refering to the same rich Khaleeji that roll around in 100thousand$ cars.
SO of course women arent gonna have a problem were there is an abundance of money. This rich population is a minority in the middle east, Check the poor areas out, check the middle class areas out. Check the fundamentalist household. Observe normal women Like women that dont have any connections with amirs or sultans. See how their life is.

well none of my faimly or people i know have connections with any amirs or sultans and neither are we rich, infact to have a maid it costs you 150 dollars US for one month i think alot of people here can afford that, so lets not make it sound like only rich people have maids. You said all arab muslim countries are corrupt, when saying that i believe you where reffering to womans rights yet you just flipped it and said ofcourse woman in the the khaleej are off well. Like you said check the poorer areas, usually the poorer areas around the arab world are very strong cultured therefore culture dominants religous ways, and thats only in some poor areas not all. And most of the people i know come from Yemen which is a very poor country, Palestine etc.. etc.. etc.. and i aint neva heard anyone complain

Misunderstanding here, i didnt mean adultery, i meant a single muslim woman, is not permitted to have relations with a single infedal male, and if there is relations, in a lot of cases, the woman is killed and again in most cases by her own family. And this murder is permitted by the islamic doctrine either directly or indirectly. On paper, arab country gov. would not permit this, however there is a lack luster effort to enforce womens rights. And i believe that Islam plays a major role in this.

Well relations like the Quran said what i qouted would have a consequence of 100 lashes samething would go for a dude, but let me help you out here i think you mean a muslim woman cant marry a non muslim man, yes thats true but the Quran says 100 lashes so all that killing is cultural you cannot blame it on Islam because i posted the verse of the punishment and death was not in there.

In contrast to the female situation, It is common to find arab males traveling to more liberal arab countries, Europe, or to the local whore house to get their freek on with women, infedals, other dudes, etc... and guess what, no one there is to stop them, also with various implications derived from their religion, they will feel less guilt.

Yes thats true alot of arab men do that and that aint coo but same rules apply for a woman apply for a man thats what Islam teaches in many areas. What is happening now is cultural, cultural the keyword in this post. And what various implications derived from Islam are you talking about? because the punishment for adultery is equal both ways.

Well you earlier refered to people you personaly knew from each of those countries, However you cannot use that to speak for the whole population.

True, you should give that advice to yourself as well, because your attacking a whole religion.

Im assuming that your experiance of the middle east is sheltered which lead you to believe that women and men are treated equal in most arab countires. Because my experiance lead me to a different persepective. Granted the situation is getting better, but the current situation is by no means acceptable.

Not at all sheltered i seen more different arab cultures than many

On paper, women's rights may not be tarnished, but in the minds of the politicians that run each of these countries is. Do you honestly believe that these politicains have the same type of modern opinions as you or me?

ok, what does religion have to do with this? Im here to say that this is not Islam this is anti-islam, and this is cultural, politicians are the farthest thing from being religous, yet some of them put on that front.

The arab culture is HEAVILY influenced by Islam.
So when you say the culture is what opresses women, underneath it all the culture is a product of

Really? read into the way women where treated and looked at before Islam, and then how they were treated during the prophets time, a complete 180.

You say that true islam is practiced correctly mostly in the western world. What happens when an islamic leader living in the middle east is asked where is islam practiced most correctly? I garentee you they're not gonna say "In the Western World". SO the people that live in Mecca, the center of islam, where the quran is broken down and analyzed to the haraket of each letter dont practice islam as correct as the liquor store owner in Detriot? That is a matter of opinion, but logicly people are inclined to believe the islamic clergymen in the land of islam that their villages practice the truest form islam and not you and the western world.

I should have made my statement clearer, what i meant is that here in the west Cultures and religion dont mix. So when people look into Islam they get pure Islam. Thats why so many people mainly females are converting to Islam here in the west because they get pure islam. But yeah Makkah and Medina is the spot for islam though.

Did you read the stats i posted up or the article those people converted, those females converted to Islam why would anyone want to be in a religion that opresses them? BECAUSE IT DOESNT! thats the bottome line that woman are converting to Islam in large numbers = Islam is not opressive towards women. Thats my whole point.

 

[WHITE DEVIL]

well none of my faimly or people i know have connections with any amirs or sultans and neither are we rich, infact to have a maid it costs you 150 dollars US for one month i think alot of people here can afford that, so lets not make it sound like only rich people have maids. You said all arab muslim countries are corrupt, when saying that i believe you where reffering to womans rights yet you just flipped it and said ofcourse woman in the the khaleej are off well. Like you said check the poorer areas, usually the poorer areas around the arab world are very strong cultured therefore culture dominants religous ways, and thats only in some poor areas not all. And most of the people i know come from Yemen which is a very poor country, Palestine etc.. etc.. etc.. and i aint neva heard anyone complain

My next door neighbor and good friends mother (almost like my second mother) is Yemeni and her mother was tossed out of a window for supposedly sleeping with another man who in fact raped her. The man stood up in court and said under an oath that she came onto him and seduced him. Not only was she not even allowed to testify in her own defense, her husband stood by and let it happen. She was not one of his favorite wives, apparently she argued and had a temper (meaning she probably said maybe.... "No" once). In fact the community commended him for acting honorably and upholding moral values. She watched her own mother be thrown out of a three story window and the whole incident treated like it was an everyday thing.

The saddest part is that no male in her entire family shed a tear. They believed a man from another family because their father told them to. Many men in Arab countries simply do not give half a shit about a women's life. In Saudi Arabia there are no birth certificates for women. Women's births are not even recorded. To say that they are spoiled and pampered is a half-truth; many of them would like such simple things like the ability to drive, the ability to wear even a *thinner* veil or abayas that do not cover their entire body.

Showing your legs or face is the risk of spraypaint or acid by mutawas.

The reason you have never heard complaints, show, is because women who complain get beat the fuck up or god knows whatever other punishments. When the first Gulf War started Kuwaiti women, who were allowed to drive cars, drove into Saudi Arabia and drove around the streets. This got the women of one town so excited that 24 of them decided to take the bold move of driving a car.

All 24 were arrested, and one of them was put to death.

Really? read into the way women where treated and looked at before Islam, and then how they were treated during the prophets time, a complete 180.

If they were treated worse than they are treated in most Arab countries today, it must have been mass murder. They must have been hunting females like mountain goats for it to be any worse. The other part of Islam that is not questioned is the fact that most Islamic societies worship the culture in the days of the Prophet (peace be upon him) such that their cultures have not advanced and have not moved forward since those days. The Middle Ages were the time when the Middle East and Islamic countries were the most advanced civilizations in the world. Those times are looked back on and idolized in Muslim lore. Many of the countries have the same ideals as then - the only thing that has changed in Saudi Arabia is the car has replaced the camel and oil has replaced the bedouin lifestyle.

I should have made my statement clearer, what i meant is that here in the west Cultures and religion dont mix. So when people look into Islam they get pure Islam. Thats why so many people mainly females are converting to Islam here in the west because they get pure islam. But yeah Makkah and Medina is the spot for islam though.

This I don't understand. Isn't countries where Shar'ia is practiced the purest form of Islam? Also, I have read books by feminist lesbians who come from Muslim families and voice their opposition to different forms of Islam. These dumb liberal bitches know nothing of Islam in my opinion and this would never occur in the Middle East. In fact, most female Middle Eastern authors go to great lengths to protect their identity for the sake of themselves and their families.

One aspect of Shar'ia is that the countries are to rule justly and according to the word of God. According to many jurists interpretations, this is the case in the Middle East. How, then, can pure Islam be practiced in Western countries without the rule of Shar'ia.

Did you read the stats i posted up or the article those people converted, those females converted to Islam why would anyone want to be in a religion that opresses them? BECAUSE IT DOESNT! thats the bottome line that woman are converting to Islam in large numbers = Islam is not opressive towards women. Thats my whole point.

I'd say that Western or 'Whitewashed' forms of Islam do not oppress women. Are these the purest forms of Islam, though? I would like to know what Islam that follows the Quran to the T would look like.

 

[shoowilla]

i aint gonna answer to everything you replied because its like running around in cricles with you, but one thing about what you said with the sharia. I can count the countries that implement "sharia law" on one hand, and the quotation marks are there because most of these countries have their own twists, they put a front that it is sharia but if you compare the two its like apples and oranges. Second, you said Islam in the west is white washed? really? hows that? where does your accusations come from? is that something you said to answer back about all the converts that are converting with a huge majority of them being women? Is that all you can say? because infact Islam in the west is mainly on the path of the salaf, almost every masjid you go to out here is on the path of the salaf, The salaf are the people who follow the Quran, the Hadith and the companions actions (those who were alive at the time of the prophet s.a.w and where with him) and they call themselves Salafiyoon, out west they call them extremists or wahabis (by the way the term wahabis does not exist i can go into that if you want me to, but the people who committ suicide and kill inocent children are Kharijun, and those are the people who deviate from the religion). Only Quran and Hadith which means only Gods words and the prophets s.a.w, how can that be whitewashed? because the only thing they follow is what is in the Quran (God) and Hadith (prophet s.a.w sayings). Islam where you follow the Quran and Hadith only is Islam to the T, but i dont believe in a name on ourselves thats why i only call my self a muslim, the prophet s.a.w warned the muslims from going into different sects, infact he said that islam will have more sects than judaisim and christianity, but only one of those sescts will go to heaven. The prophet never called himself anything but a muslim, therefore thats what one should label himself.

Your still judging Islam on the actions of arabs and people in the middle east, your like how the police racially profile black people, everytime i got pulled over was when i was with some african american males in a older vehicle or brand new, 90% of the time their cause was because the car looked suspicous and that they were looking for someone. You keep posting this stuff and speak like you really know but your just stating your original opinion which is the religion of Islam is opressive towards women, when i crush your accusations you go back to google or borders and look for some more material to come at me with to support your original opinion yet its nothing, i can tell but maybe im wrong that your doing this because you dont want to accept the fact but maybe you already have but your just putting this whole debate thing on just cause you dont wanna go back on your original opinion, bring me a verse from the Quran with tafseer where it is opressive towards women. Bring me a Hadith with tafseer where its opressive against women. Until then you really have no point, Those two sources i have stated are Islam and not the actions of muslims.

Heres another article for your pleasure from the christian science monitorUS Latinas seek answers in Islam

 

[WHITE DEVIL]

I think you misunderstand my intent homie. What I was wondering about is this; can true Islam be practiced in a sinful or atheist society? I think I read a jurist opinion a few years back that said it cannot. What I have heard from my conversations with the many Muslims I know is that the Muslims of the West, especially the women, do things here that would never be permissible back home, but it is tolerated because of the society they live in. Also, a lot of the books by Western Muslims are regarded as rubbish in the Middle East, so which is more correct?

I think my opinion is that, according to my readings (of course I am in no way an expert) no country practices Sharia in the manner prescribed by the Quran.

This is merely my attempt to understand, not denigrate, so I will shorten it.

Can true Islam be practiced under a government and country that is indeed hostile? Do the practices of Westerners who are undeniably much more liberal than conservative Muslims in the Middle East still have validity in the Quran and the world Islamic community? That's what I really want to know.

 

[Kreep]

About Saudi women being oppressed...my friend sent me an article which discusses how Saudi women disagree with the misperceptions of the West, about them being oppressed and mistreated. See my post below this one.

I got to visit Saudi for the first time last year, and as a new Muslim who converted to Islam 3 years ago, I didn't see any sign of women being mistreated or oppressed over there. If Islam is such an oppressive religion towards women, why are so many women converting all over the world. Why are there so many Christian women who are married to Muslim men.

As for the original article in this thread, it's just some propaganda made up by some Anti-Muslim group who just want to propagate lies and show Islam in a negative light. Yes believe or not, there are MANY anti-Muslim organizations across the Muslim world unfortunately.

Also many Muslim country are corrupt nowadays not because of Islam, but because of their LACK of practicing Islam. If they were to practice Islam the way that the Prophet Muhammad(SAW) and his companions practiced it, then the Muslim world would not be in the same state as it is now. The Prophet Muhammad (SAW) said it himself, that there would be a lot of chaos and changes to the religion after his death, so what's going on right now across the Muslim world, he predicted it himself.

So you cannot look at these negative incidents and say that this is what Islam teaches, cause that couldn't be further from the truth. Rather Islam teaches us to honor women, and to protect them, and not to oppress them at all (whether Muslim or non-Muslim). And it's mandatory for a Muslim to treat their parents (especially their mother) with the utmost respect at all times. And there are so many examples I could give you where the Prophet Muhammad (SAW) ordered men to treat women fairly and justly, and to protect them from harm.

So as I said before, don't blame these incidents on Islam. Blame it on peoples LACK of practicing Islam, the true Islam the way that Prophet Muhummad (SAW) and his companions use to follow. Because they were the best Muslims in history, and many Muslim countries are not following Islam the way they prescribed it.

 

[Kreep]

Oh yeah, and here's the article I was talking about in the beginning of that post...

Source: San Francisco Chronicle

September 30, 2005

Saudi women dispute U.S. envoy's notions - Defense of their role in society surprises Bush aide Karen Hughes


quote:
The audience -- 500 women covered in black at a Saudi university -- seemed an ideal place for Karen Hughes, a senior Bush administration official charged with spreading the American message in the Muslim world, to make her pitch.

But the response on Tuesday was not what she and her aides expected. When Hughes expressed the hope that Saudi women would be able to drive and "fully participate in society" much as they do in her country, many challenged her.

"The general image of the Arab woman is that she isn't happy," one audience member said. "Well, we're all pretty happy." The roomful of students, faculty members and some professionals resounded with applause.

The administration's efforts to publicize U.S. ideals in the Muslim world have often run into such resistance. For that reason, Hughes, who is considered one of the administration's most scripted and careful members, was hired specifically for the task.

Many in this region say they resent the U.S. assumption that, given the chance, everyone would live like Americans...

The group of women on Tuesday, picked by the university, represented the privileged elite of this Red Sea coastal city, known as one of the more liberal areas in the country. And while they were certainly friendly toward Hughes, half a dozen who spoke up took issue with what she said.

Hughes, the undersecretary of state for public diplomacy, is on her first trip to the Middle East. She seemed clearly taken aback as the women told her that just because they were not allowed to vote or drive, that did not mean they were treated unfairly or imprisoned in their own homes...

Hughes found herself on the defensive simply by saying that she hoped women would be able to vote in future elections.

Hughes also spoke personally, saying that driving a car was "an important part of my freedom."...

Several women said later that Americans fail to understand that their traditional society is embraced by men and women alike.

"There is more male chauvinism in my profession in Europe and America than in my country," said Dr. Siddiqa Kamal, an obstetrician and gynecologist who runs her own hospital. "I don't want to drive a car. I worked hard for my medical degree. Why do I need a driver's license?"

 

[The Duke of Earl]

WHY WOULD A MAN STAND THERE AND LET A MAN WHO RAPED HIS WIFE GET AWAY UNHARMED , WHY WOULD HE STAND THERE LIKE A COWARD AND NOT KILL THE RAPIST..........