Question for Theists

[HERESY]

This is where we may disagree.

Actually, we don't disagree.

God doesn't sin, not because He chooses not to sin out of His holiness, but because it is not logically possible for Him to sin.

It is not a choice. His holiness does not allow him to sin. His holiness does not make it logically possible to do so. However, WE must choose not to sin out of holiness until we reach the point that it is iogically impossible to do so.

God cannot go against Himself. His intent is His action. He does not commit mistakes.

Correct.

I agree that God is righteous regardless if man agrees or not. That is my very point. God is righteous and holy by His own standard, and no other standard exists.

Correct, and trouble comes about when we try to make other standards.

When discussing God's default goodness, one of the JW's opened to Mark 10:18, which states, "And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God." (KJV)
Of course, they didn't use the KJV version, but nonetheless...

And what point were they trying to make?

 

[n9newunsixx5150]

I am just saying that on the surface there may be a contradiction. 1) we should ring the bell twice, and 2) we should not ring the bell twice. 1) contradicts 2). But I agree that upon further investigation it is simply a change of circumstance.

The point the JW's were trying to make with Mark 10:18 was the same point I was making - that God is the default good. Someone (like the person I was debating with on that other website) may say that Jesus maintained the standard of being good and thus he was good, but Jesus is clearly stating that he, in himself, cannot be good, but that only One is good and that is God. Of course, this doesn't mean that Jesus isn't good, it is just Jesus' way of pointing to the real standard of goodness.


Are you saying that we can reach a point where it is logically impossible for us to sin? Please explain this state of existence.

 

[2-0-NINE]

in Mark 10:18 Jesus is asking the Man why he's calling Him Good. If you read Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God. He's explaining his own Deity. He was asking the man his basis of the belief on why Yeshua(Jesus is Good) so Jesus implies that only God is good, in a way showing his deity.


example
Man: Good Master

Jesus: why do you call me Good, only God is good

Man: because you are God, in a way that's what that passage tells

 

[ParkBoyz]

in Mark 10:18 Jesus is asking the Man why he's calling Him Good. If you read Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God. He's explaining his own Deity. He was asking the man his basis of the belief on why Yeshua(Jesus is Good) so Jesus implies that only God is good, in a way showing his deity.


example
Man: Good Master

Jesus: why do you call me Good, only God is good

Man: because you are God, in a way that's what that passage tells

Not trying to intrude, but I'd interpret that passage the exact opposite of the way you did. If you were to interpret that literally, Jesus is basically asking why are they calling him good, affirming that he isn't God, and that there's only one who is good, God(for there is only one God)... I must be missing something, how'd you get that out of what he said?

 

[2-0-NINE]

Do you understand how Jewish interactions were amongst those times. Anything considered Good was of God. So by the Man implying Yeshua was good, he was indeed acknowledging Yeshua as God Himself Incarnate. Why do you call me good? Only God is good. If God is only good, and this man implies Yeshua is Good, the man himself believes he is Moshiach and Yahweh. Which Jesus asked many times to people, even asking his own disciples so who do you say I AM(YAH)?

He waits for you to open the doors to your hearts, and he allows himself to come in. He doesn't deny being good, he's just letting the man know, do you know that me being good, means I am God, there for since God is only good, I am God.

 

[Hemp]

Do you understand how Jewish interactions were amongst those times. Anything considered Good was of God. So by the Man implying Yeshua was good, he was indeed acknowledging Yeshua as God Himself Incarnate. Why do you call me good? Only God is good. If God is only good, and this man implies Yeshua is Good, the man himself believes he is Moshiach and Yahweh. Which Jesus asked many times to people, even asking his own disciples so who do you say I AM(YAH)?

He waits for you to open the doors to your hearts, and he allows himself to come in. He doesn't deny being good, he's just letting the man know, do you know that me being good, means I am God, there for since God is only good, I am God.

so the lesson comes from the man and not from jesus?

 

[ParkBoyz]

Do you understand how Jewish interactions were amongst those times. Anything considered Good was of God. So by the Man implying Yeshua was good, he was indeed acknowledging Yeshua as God Himself Incarnate. Why do you call me good? Only God is good. If God is only good, and this man implies Yeshua is Good, the man himself believes he is Moshiach and Yahweh. Which Jesus asked many times to people, even asking his own disciples so who do you say I AM(YAH)?

He waits for you to open the doors to your hearts, and he allows himself to come in. He doesn't deny being good, he's just letting the man know, do you know that me being good, means I am God, there for since God is only good, I am God.

Words are crazy man, they really are. The way human beings are able to manipulate words, meanings, and concepts is a testament to divinely ordered human intelligence and ingenuity. I must be some where down the evolutionary latter though because I still can't grasp how you came to that conclusion.. This seems to me that Jesus is correcting his accuser, I see him asking them "why they called him good", as a serious question(You take it to be a rhetorical one), it seems to me that Jesus is distinct from God and clearly states it. It's crazy because Jesus always had a slick way of avoiding the question when questioned on his divinity. Like when he was about to be stoned and what he said during his trial. What do I know though, I rely too much on literal interpretations I guess. In order to be saved I guess that I should study prose, poetry, and figurative language, along with Jewish history. This Christianity thing is a hard over all concept for the layman skeptic to understand.

 

[HERESY]

The point the JW's were trying to make with Mark 10:18 was the same point I was making - that God is the default good. Someone (like the person I was debating with on that other website) may say that Jesus maintained the standard of being good and thus he was good, but Jesus is clearly stating that he, in himself, cannot be good, but that only One is good and that is God. Of course, this doesn't mean that Jesus isn't good, it is just Jesus' way of pointing to the real standard of goodness.

Read what stockton wrote, and I say to read it because now the diety of Jesus comes into play.

Are you saying that we can reach a point where it is logically impossible for us to sin? Please explain this state of existence.

I believe some will come into this state of existence after the day of judgement. I also believe that some of us can come into this stage of existence by stripping ourselves of any desire and sensations outside of God and his perfect will. Peter 1:16 isn't far-fetched, and some of us could actually do it if we think before we react, or if we think about our relationship with God and HIS desire before we actually act. This is a CONSTANT theme in the ministry of Jesus, but not too many people pay attention it. What prohibits us from attaining this state of existence are the things I listed above, and the carnal nature of man not being denied on a daily basis.

 

[Hemp]

Man, words are crazy man, they really are. The way human beings are able to manipulate words, meanings, and concepts is a testament to divinely ordered human intelligence and ingenuity. I must be some where down the evolutionary latter though because I can't grasp how you came to that conclusion.. This seems to me that Jesus is correcting his accuser, I see him asking them "why they called him good", as a serious question(You take it to be a rhetorical one), it seems to me that Jesus is distinct from God and clearly states it. It's crazy because Jesus always had a slick way of avoiding the question though when questioned on his divinity. Like when he was about to be stoned and what he said during his trial. What do I know though, I rely too much on literal interpretations I guess. In order to be saved I guess that I should study prose, poetry, and figurative language, along with Jewish history. This Christianity thing is a hard over all concept for the laymen skeptic to understand.

Exactly.
Jesus is saying that he has only reached Godhood through being good.\
anybody can reach the same status as jesus since he was only a man who aquired that state as anybody can do so.

jesus says God is love, jesus says he is the way (to God) and that is through love.

this is what i can plainly see and understand

 

[ParkBoyz]

Exactly.
Jesus is saying that he has only reached Godhood through being good.\
anybody can reach the same status as jesus since he was only a man who aquired that state as anybody can do so.

jesus says God is love, jesus says he is the way (to God) and that is through love.

this is what i can plainly see and understand

That's how I'd like to interpret it..

 

[HERESY]

A question for both of you. Where in the verse does he deny being God or Good?

Exactly.
Jesus is saying that he has only reached Godhood through being good.

No, he is not saying that, and the bible does not support this belief.

anybody can reach the same status as jesus since he was only a man who aquired that state as anybody can do so.

see above.

jesus says God is love, jesus says he is the way (to God) and that is through love.

correct.

this is what i can plainly see and understand

Some of you need to study how the bible is written and how it should be read.

 

[Hemp]

Some of you need to study how the bible is written and how it should be read.

same of the quran and to you.
so would that mean that the 4 times you have read the quran are nothing,
and that you dont know the quran or what it has to offer?

 

[n9newunsixx5150]

Do you understand how Jewish interactions were amongst those times. Anything considered Good was of God. So by the Man implying Yeshua was good, he was indeed acknowledging Yeshua as God Himself Incarnate.

(Bold emphasis added)

Being "of God" is not necessarily the same as being God oneself. You can be a man of God, but that doesn't automatically make you a Divine incarnation.

Now, I am not saying Jesus isn't a Divine incarnation. I am just saying that your reasoning here doesn't seem to follow.

 

[HERESY]

same of the quran and to you.

Read the quran multiple times, and tripped up several muslims on this board. One of them had to seek a "scholar" to answer my questions and then proceeded to pass the knowledge off as his own. No thanks bud.

so would that mean that the 4 times you have read the quran are nothing,
and that you dont know the quran or what it has to offer?

This makes no sense. What are you asking me?

 

[ParkBoyz]

A question for both of you. Where in the verse does he deny being God or Good?

Where in the verse(or the Bible for that matter) does he claim to be God? The burden of proof is on the believers because there is no way to interpret that as him saying that he is God. That's all that I'm saying basically.

 

[HERESY]

Where in the verse(or the Bible for that matter) does he claim to be God)? The burden of proof is on the believers because there is no way to interpret that as him saying that he is God. That's all that I'm saying basically.

First of all, several of you are missing the entire point of the verse listed (mark 10:18.) And in order to understand it you should probably read the verses that come BEFORE it. If you understand the verses before it the first part of your question will be answered. As for jesus claiming to be God he claims Godhood throught the entire gospels. Why do you think he was going to be stoned numerous times? Also, there IS a way of interpreting IF you understand HOW the bible is written and how it should be read.

 

[n9newunsixx5150]

Read what stockton wrote, and I say to read it because now the diety of Jesus comes into play.

Perhaps. But one has yet to demonstrate that in this thread. As I told Stocktone, being "of God" doesn't necessarily make one God Himself. Jesus could have equally been alluding to his closeness with God as he could have been alluding to himself actually being God. To conclude that Jesus is God will require more Scripture, I think.

Nevertheless, this was sort of beyond the point being made in citing this verse originally. The idea was that God is the only good (whether Jesus is God or otherwise).

I believe some will come into this state of existence after the day of judgement. I also believe that some of us can come into this stage of existence by stripping ourselves of any desire and sensations outside of God and his perfect will. Peter 1:16 isn't far-fetched, and some of us could actually do it if we think before we react, or if we think about our relationship with God and HIS desire before we actually act. This is a CONSTANT theme in the ministry of Jesus, but not too many people pay attention it. What prohibits us from attaining this state of existence are the things I listed above, and the carnal nature of man not being denied on a daily basis.

I see. Though what I am asking is what our state of existence is like when we are no longer able to sin. Do we lose free will? How does this work?

 

[HERESY]

I see. Though what I am asking is what our state of existence is like when we are no longer able to sin. Do we lose free will? How does this work?

If you are seeking to do the will of God what use is free will?

 

[ParkBoyz]

First of all, several of you are missing the entire point of the verse listed (mark 10:18.) And in order to understand it you should probably read the verses that come BEFORE it. If you understand the verses before it the first part of your question will be answered. As for jesus claiming to be God he claims Godhood throught the entire gospels. Why do you think he was going to be stoned numerous times? Also, there IS a way of interpreting IF you understand HOW the bible is written and how it should be read.

If it isn't too much trouble, would you like to post a verse where Jesus claims to be God? I'm familiar with the father and I are one verse, but something else a little more direct perhaps? Because God can be one with anybody, so that's not what I'm looking for. Also, I read the verse in its context and it doesn't even seem relevant in the subject of Jesus' divinity. No where does he imply to iherit the nature of God in this verse, and imo the entire New Testament. But I have no problem being proven wrong..

 

[HERESY]

If it isn't too much trouble, would you like to post a verse where Jesus claims to be God?

Sure, I'll post something that is even more intimate than "I am God".

In John 8:12-59 you see a discussion between Yeshi, and the pharisees. In verse 58 he makes a claim, and was almost stoned afterwards. Read it and post that claim here.

I'm familiar with the father and I are one verse, but something else a little more direct perhaps?

After you read the above I'll give you more. Focus on that right now.

God can be one with anybody, so that's not what I'm looking for.

God cannot be one with anybody as long as the person is not one with God.

Also, I read the verse in its context and it doesn't even seem relevant in the subject of Jesus' divinity. No where does he imply to iherit the nature of God in this verse, and imo the entire New Testament. But I have no problem being proven wrong..

Please read this:

http://www.forananswer.org/Mark/Mk10_18.htm