Meditation-slash-Karma

[BaSICCally]

You don’t necessarily have to see something in order for it to be real. Can you see gravity? Can you see gravity pulling down your pencil when you drop it from your hand?

exactly.

However gravity is a feeble power on earth. Electromagentism is a much stronger power to which gravity feeds off. Yet physics is just brushing the surface to its powers. The realm of electromagentism is in a upridictable world of flux, greater then what the human mind can comprehend or measure. Yet electromagentism controls gravity.

 

[2-0-Sixx]

I now classify you as a "weak" athiest bro. This is NOT a "bad" name for an athiest it simply is applied to an athiest with a certain belief structure.

weak athiesm: Lack of BELIEF in a diety or gods (most likely this lack is attributed to science and logic)


Strong athiesm: Gods do NOT exist.

Yeah, I'm aware of the terms weak Atheist and strong Atheist.

From my understanding, these two terms were later coined to distinguish the different types of Atheists (i believe there is one other, don’t recall the term but it refers to children or unconscious people). The original term Atheist means lack of belief....

Actually 206 Mulbiviousis is quite real. That little voice you heard that said "mulbiviousis" was actually THE Mulbiviousis. Thats where it came from.

Hmm, trying to scare me?!? heh. Actually, I never heard a voice in my head; in fact, I think it came about by mistake. I was trying to think of a fake word and typed "multi" then I got stumped what could come next, I deleted "ti" and typed "biv" for some reason, then wrote "iousis" because that sounds sounds real and is often found at the end of disease or condition. I then read the phony word in my head and it sounded real. So, the word is partially real, partially mistake and partially by random chance. OR, perhaps I knew this word in a previous life?!?

 

[HERESY]

^^^lol@previous life! And yea it does sound like a sickness.



:hgk:

 

[Dmac_nasty]

OR, perhaps I knew this word in a previous life?!?

I knew you'd come around... peep game

 

[n9newunsixx5150]

There is automatic progression in the lesser conscious life forms.

Progression to what? Are you telling me that something which started off as an amoeba soul can become a human soul? Or are you telling me we start as a "soul" with no specific "type" (raw material) and become a specific type of soul?

There are no "types" of soul. The soul in a dog is the same quality soul in a human, giraffe, ant, banyan tree, etc. The transcendental soul, which indwells the living organism (and is actually the living entity itself) transmigrates into species with higher level of consciousness until it inhabits the human form wherein it may possibly attain liberation.

So lets say an ant soul comes into existance. This soul works it's way up? How? Over time? What are the guidelines for doing so? How does this ant soul move up? It's simply automatic right? How long does it take? 10,000 years for each form?

Beside that there is no such thing as an "ant soul", as I have already explained, souls do not come into existence. That is the Vedic conception, anyway. The soul falls into the material world and takes birth according to it's desires. Think of the lower species as a probation period for the soul. How long does this probation period last for each form? As long as God sees it fit. How is such knowledge going to benefit you anyway?

1. Please define material existance


2. Please define abominable existance

Material existence means falling into ignorance of God.

"More abominable existence" means falling deeper into ignorance than one already was.

so the human form is where one comes to the crossroads? Ok let me ask you a question. Do animals SIN or make bad judgements (two different things here)? If a lion kills a human being does that place the lion soul four slots down and further from being human? So when do the lower forms (souls) have a knowledge of right and wrong? When they become HUMAN? So it moves up the ladder, becomes a human soul and that starts the process of right and wrong?

Exactly. Right and wrong is the responsibility of intelligent beings. The lower species of life have no conception because they haven't the capacity to reason beyond the necessity to eat, sleep, defend and mate. Humans also do these four things, but we have the capacity to understand the constitutional position of the soul and it's relationship with God. So if we engage our lives simply in eating, sleeping, defending and mating then we are living animal life. In other words, we are wasting the human facility. Right and wrong thus pertains to our ability to know God.

If you have no scientific knowledge about the planets where does your knowledge of these planets come from? Now before you answer read and understand the question bro. I'm not saying you NEED science to prove that these planets exist. What I'm asking is what is YOUR proof that they exist? Is it a candy wrapper, a crsytal ball, a scripture, research, spyware or a wmd?

Vedic Scripture, of course. Just so you know, I am not simply concocting my own answers. I may have been guilty of that some years back when I first came to the siccness, but things have changed quite a bit.

Do the souls here on earth now, who were previously on earth, always explain what their past life was like?

No but according to what mosa said some of them do. If people here are able to remember past life on this planet how come they can't remember "My name is Samus Aran, I was born on the planet Zebes and raised by the Chozo"? Can you provide me with ANY source where someone explains another planet and another life?

Yes, some of them do remember past lives. I haven't personally done a study to see if there is anyone who remembers some past life on another planet. Although, I have read that Malachi York at one point claimed to be incarnated on earth from another planet. Whether he was telling the truth or just saying this to fool people is another conversation altogether. By the way, I like your metroid example.

So our memory is hardly perfect but people talk about past lives here on earth. As I asked before can you provide me with ANY source where someone explains another planet and another life? I would love to read that info for myself.

I'll ask around and see what I can find about this. The problem is of course, do we believe them?

So basically souls travel from one body to the next via mind, intelligence and false ego? Thats how a soul inhabits the body in the womb? Through mind and intelligence?

Yes, the subtle body carries the soul where it takes shelter in the particle of semen of the man just suitable to be his/her father.

SRIMAD BHAGAVATAM 3.31.1

TEXT

sri-bhagavan uvaca
karmana daiva-netrena
jantur dehopapattaye
striyah pravista udaram
pumso retah-kanasrayah


SYNONYMS

sri-bhagavan uvaca--the Supreme Personality of Godhead said; karmana--by the result of work; daiva-netrena--under the supervision of the Lord; jantuh--the living entity; deha--a body; upapattaye--for obtaining; striyah--of a woman; pravistah--enters; udaram--the womb; pumsah--of a man; retah--of semen; kana--a particle; asrayah--dwelling in.


TRANSLATION

The Personality of Godhead said: Under the supervision of the Supreme Lord and according to the result of his work, the living entity, the soul, is made to enter into the womb of a woman through the particle of male semen to assume a particular type of body.

Ok this is really good info here but it doesn't answer my question. What are the requirements for those souls to enter the earth realms? Can they CHOOSE to come to earth or is that dictated by karma? So the untouchables go where? They go to the lower planets? What are the names of some of these lower planets? Do the planets have specific requirments of karma/reincarnation or do they simply follow "universal law"?

Desire and karma both play parts in deciding where the soul takes shelter. There may be specific requirements for different planets, but I don't know them. Regardless, even specific requirements of karma will follow universal law.
As far as names go...
The only ones I can think of off the top of my head are Atala, Vitala and Sutala. These are all in the lower planetary system and are described in the Srimad Bhagavatam.

I will agree with you to some extent. However I do not believe we were all in the spiritual realm as entities or "beings" with thought. I believe MAN (adam) had a pure physical form but pure spiritual thought. I believe the only person to revert back to the original form is yeshua.

I often see people referring to "spiritual" as opposed to being physical and in this way it seems that they assume that spiritual means intangible and without form. You may not mean this but just to clarify, our spiritual bodies have a physical form. We have taken shelter in these material bodies (which are subject to birth and death) due to our ignorance.

 

[Gringo Starr]

Yeah, I'm aware of the terms weak Atheist and strong Atheist.

From my understanding, these two terms were later coined to distinguish the different types of Atheists (i believe there is one other, don’t recall the term but it refers to children or unconscious people). The original term Atheist means lack of belief....

After reading this thread...i would see you as more of an agnostic...than an atheist...

 

[2-0-Sixx]

I knew you'd come around... peep game

Thats the same guy who n9newunsixx5150 linked me to (different site though). I already responded to him regarding the birthmarks.

 

[HERESY]

There are no "types" of soul. The soul in a dog is the same quality soul in a human, giraffe, ant, banyan tree, etc. The transcendental soul, which indwells the living organism (and is actually the living entity itself) transmigrates into species with higher level of consciousness until it inhabits the human form wherein it may possibly attain liberation.



Ok so we simply start off as a generic soul and when the time comes we inhabit a human form so we can attain liberation. When is this decided? When does one say "ok I'm going to go back in and give it another try"? Is one forced to go back in by some "god" or is this choice up to the soul? Can a soul PICK which type of body it wants to inhabit? What power or god places the soul in the body? How is this done?


Human form = crossroad.


Beside that there is no such thing as an "ant soul", as I have already explained, souls do not come into existence. That is the Vedic conception, anyway. The soul falls into the material world and takes birth according to it's desires.


The soul does not come into existence but the soul "falls into the material world"? Where does it fall from? If it does not come into existence how does it exist?


So it takes birth according to its desire? What type of desires does this soul have considering that it hasn't reached a higher level of consciousness?



Think of the lower species as a probation period for the soul.


If all the souls come to the human crossroad whats the use of a probation period before that time? How does that probation period effect anything?


How long does this probation period last for each form? As long as God sees it fit.


So god might see fit for person X to remain a mantis for 8 years while person Q must remain one for 12? What did Q do to deserve a shorter time or is this simply gods choice and thats it?


How is such knowledge going to benefit you anyway?


It helps me understand your doctrine, your concepts, you and those who believe like you.

Material existence means falling into ignorance of God.

"More abominable existence" means falling deeper into ignorance than one already was.


If this is true how how can one move to a better ignorance of God because you previously stated that:


here one may move up into better material existence, down into a more abominable existence, or they can transcend material existence altogether


Can you please connect these dots because I don't understand what you're trying to convey. First you say "better material existence" as if this is something to look forward to and in your next post you say it's falling into ignorance?



Exactly. Right and wrong is the responsibility of intelligent beings. The lower species of life have no conception because they haven't the capacity to reason beyond the necessity to eat, sleep, defend and mate. Humans also do these four things, but we have the capacity to understand the constitutional position of the soul and it's relationship with God. So if we engage our lives simply in eating, sleeping, defending and mating then we are living animal life. In other words, we are wasting the human facility. Right and wrong thus pertains to our ability to know God.


So you're telling me animals or the souls that inhabit animals do not understand god or right from wrong until they reach human form? If this is true why does a lower species need a probation period?


Vedic Scripture, of course. Just so you know, I am not simply concocting my own answers. I may have been guilty of that some years back when I first came to the siccness, but things have changed quite a bit.


Vedic scripture according to who or what? It's NOTHING wrong with it being according to you but some people who accept the vedas do not accept some of the teachings that you promote. This is why I asked the question.

Yes, some of them do remember past lives. I haven't personally done a study to see if there is anyone who remembers some past life on another planet. Although, I have read that Malachi York at one point claimed to be incarnated on earth from another planet. Whether he was telling the truth or just saying this to fool people is another conversation altogether. By the way, I like your metroid example.


Malachi York??????? Rizq??? LMAO. Lets move on to Brinstar and yeah metroid is TIIIIIIIIIIIIIGHT!!!!!


I'll ask around and see what I can find about this. The problem is of course, do we believe them?


No we don't. Do you believe York? if so what did he do in his past life to land him a 50 year prison sentence?


The Personality of Godhead said: Under the supervision of the Supreme Lord and according to the result of his work, the living entity, the soul, is made to enter into the womb of a woman through the particle of male semen to assume a particular type of body.



All souls are made for this?


Yes, the subtle body carries the soul where it takes shelter in the particle of semen of the man just suitable to be his/her father.

What makes the man suitable? If the soul is coming from a eagle and does not have knowledge of right and wrong how does it have ego, intelligence and knowledge that will dictate it's choice? Which also brings me to this question. What is the LAST stop before one gets a human body? If the human body is the transition point and ultimate realization or oneness with god (or becoming one) is the end point, what is the starting point?


Desire and karma both play parts in deciding where the soul takes shelter. There may be specific requirements for different planets, but I don't know them. Regardless, even specific requirements of karma will follow universal law.



If the souls are "basic" and have no knowledge of right or wrong how can they desire or have a concept of desire and choice? So there MAY be specific requirements for different planets? Lets say that were the case...better yet scratch that we don't need to speculate and give answers or views that are unsupported.


The only ones I can think of off the top of my head are Atala, Vitala and Sutala. These are all in the lower planetary system and are described in the Srimad Bhagavatam.



And these are where the untouchables go?


I often see people referring to "spiritual" as opposed to being physical and in this way it seems that they assume that spiritual means intangible and without form. You may not mean this but just to clarify, our spiritual bodies have a physical form. We have taken shelter in these material bodies (which are subject to birth and death) due to our ignorance.


Ok but the last sentence seems to contradict things you previously said.



:hgk:

 

[n9newunsixx5150]

Ok so we simply start off as a generic soul and when the time comes we inhabit a human form so we can attain liberation. When is this decided? When does one say "ok I'm going to go back in and give it another try"? Is one forced to go back in by some "god" or is this choice up to the soul? Can a soul PICK which type of body it wants to inhabit? What power or god places the soul in the body? How is this done?

The souls are constitutionally sat-chit-ananda - eternal, full of knowledge and bliss. That is the "generic" soul. When the soul is conditioned under the material energy it acts according to the capacity of whatever body it indwells. Desire plays a part in what form a soul takes to, but it does not have the ultimate say so. God, the Supreme Soul, makes that judgement. Everything works under His direction.

The soul does not come into existence but the soul "falls into the material world"? Where does it fall from? If it does not come into existence how does it exist?

Something that has no beginning and has no end is said to exist eternally.

So it takes birth according to its desire? What type of desires does this soul have considering that it hasn't reached a higher level of consciousness?

As I already explained, the soul moves up the evolutionary ladder. It may start out in a microscopic organism and then move up eventually to the form of a plant, then an aquatic, then some other type of animal, etc, etc. Desire is not so much a factor in this stage. But in the human stage it is. The Vedas say that there are 8,400,000 species of life in this universe. What they refer to as species has more to do with the development of consciousness than with the physiological traits, by the way. Out of those, 400,000 are "species" of human. Based on our desire and our karma we are either promoted to the planets of the demigods, degraded to the life of some lower species or possibly to some hellish planet, or we completely transcend the material world altogether. A man who desires to have sexual gratification all the time may, in his next life, become a dog (for example). That way he can go around humping other dogs, or whatever he feels like humping. If that is his desire then he will be accomodated. That is just an example, there are other factors that go into it. The whole Vedic conception is that this material world is manifest to accomodate the desires of the living entities (souls). It is by God's mercy that He has created the human form so that the souls have the chance to transcend this material energy, which is actually inferior to the soul.

If all the souls come to the human crossroad whats the use of a probation period before that time? How does that probation period effect anything?

Somehow or other (the circumstances unknown) a soul falls into the material world with some type of desire to enjoy apart from God. Whether this initial falldown constitutes the soul taking shelter in a human form to begin with or if it means that the soul will take to the form of an ant, I don't know. That is up to the individual. The probation period is necessary because God feels that it is necessary. Just as God felt it necessary to create the material universe in the first place. The human form of life is not so cheap. Let us say, for example, a soul falls down and first takes birth in the body of a fish. For some reason or another they had some desire that was best played out in the fish form. Well, the fish does not have a very advanced capacity of consciousness so the next form will be just slightly more advanced, then the next one will advance a bit more. On and on, and on until one is advanced to the stage of human. The soul doesn't go from being a fish to being a human right away. The whole construct of the material world is for the conditioned souls to enjoy their perverted desires. This constitutes the compromise of consciousness. If the soul was pure in consciousness then they would be fully cognizant of their relationship with God. Since they are not, God has arranged that they advance gradually from their animalistic desires until they have the human form.

So god might see fit for person X to remain a mantis for 8 years while person Q must remain one for 12? What did Q do to deserve a shorter time or is this simply gods choice and thats it?

In general the period of time for each species is the same for each soul. But I am sure God is not limited from making exceptions. There is an example in the Vedas of some devotee of God who happens to think of a deer at the time of death. And so he takes birth as a deer, but by the mercy of the Lord he is able to remember his past life and his devotion to God. So things don't always work the same way.

Can you please connect these dots because I don't understand what you're trying to convey. First you say "better material existence" as if this is something to look forward to and in your next post you say it's falling into ignorance?

Better material existence refers to the planets of the demigods. Krsna states in the Bhagavad-Gita that those who desire to enjoy with the demigods are less intelligent. Of course, living in the upper planetary system is more comfortable than living in the lower, hellish planets. So "better" and "worse" pertain to the advancement of consciousness and the amount of suffering. Material existence of any kind is not something to look forward to. The Vedas explain that there are three modes of material nature: the mode of ignorance, the mode of passion and the mode of goodness. The demigods reside in the mode of goodness but spiritual life even transcends the material mode of goodness.

So you're telling me animals or the souls that inhabit animals do not understand god or right from wrong until they reach human form? If this is true why does a lower species need a probation period?

Because they do not understand right or wrong. So they gradually advance to that stage. Your answer is in your question. Initially they desired something wrong, meaning that they desired to enjoy apart from God. So they play out those desires and gradually advance to the human form where they may transcend (understand and engage themselves in what is right), or they may get kicked back down to some lower species and have to undergo the same evolutionary, transmigration process.

Vedic scripture according to who or what? It's NOTHING wrong with it being according to you but some people who accept the vedas do not accept some of the teachings that you promote. This is why I asked the question.

Vedic Scripture according to Vedic Scripture. You find someone who does not accept the teachings I promote and we will address their points one by one. There is a sect of philosophers called the Mayavadi who interpret the Vedas according to their whimsy. They are easily defeated by the texts of the Vedas themselves. They often use word-jugglery to try and reason how the texts don't mean what they say (an example of this is in my conversation with Xianex).

No we don't. Do you believe York? if so what did he do in his past life to land him a 50 year prison sentence?

No. I don't believe York. I just used that as an example of someone claiming to be reinarnated from another planet because I couldn't think of any others on the top of my head. The Vedas speak of personalities on different planets. As far as one of them reincarnating on this planet, I don't know. I'll have to look into that.

All souls are made for this?

When it says "made to enter into the womb..." it is just explaining how such a thing is arranged. It doesn't mean that the soul is actually made or created, because elsewhere it explains that the soul is eternal.

What makes the man suitable? If the soul is coming from a eagle and does not have knowledge of right and wrong how does it have ego, intelligence and knowledge that will dictate it's choice? Which also brings me to this question. What is the LAST stop before one gets a human body? If the human body is the transition point and ultimate realization or oneness with god (or becoming one) is the end point, what is the starting point?

The man is suitable because this soul's (the one soon to take birth) contaminated consciousness has advanced to the human stage. The last stop before getting a human body? I don't know.
The starting point differs. That depends on the individual. This is insignificant anyway.

If the souls are "basic" and have no knowledge of right or wrong how can they desire or have a concept of desire and choice? So there MAY be specific requirements for different planets? Lets say that were the case...better yet scratch that we don't need to speculate and give answers or views that are unsupported.

I've already explained this.

And these are where the untouchables go?

Perhaps.

We have taken shelter in these material bodies (which are subject to birth and death) due to our ignorance.


Ok but the last sentence seems to contradict things you previously said.

Which previous things? We take shelter in these material bodies due to our ignorance of God. At some level we desired to try and be our own gods rather than devote ourselves to the True God. That is ignorance.

 

[2-0-Sixx]

After reading this thread...i would see you as more of an agnostic...than an atheist...

There is a difference between the two terms.

I have provided the correct definition of the word 'Agnostic', which comes from the very man who coined the term on a different thread. Here it is:

No better to explain this word then the man who coined the term, Thomas Huxley (1869). When Huxley was looking for a way to describe his thoughts, he selected the early religious sect known as "Gnostics" as a prime example of men who claim knowledge of the supernatural without justification and he distinguished himself as an "agnostic" by stipulating that the supernatural, even if it exists, lies beyond the scope of human knowledge. We cannot say if it does or does not exist, so we must suspend judgment.

Agnosticism signifies the impossibility of knowledge in a given area. An agnostic is a person who believes that something is inherently unkowable by the human mind.

The term "agnostic" does not, in itself, indicate whether or not one believes in a god. Agnosticism can be either theistic or atheistic.

The agnostic theist believes in the existence of god, BUT maintains that the nature of god is unkowable.

The agnostic atheist maintains that any supernatural realm is inherently unkowable by the human mind and the existence of any supernatural being is unkowable as well.

Atheism = the lack of belief in a god or gods.

The difference between the two is the Agnostic believes that if there is a god, it is unknowable to man; the Atheist believes that everything is knowable to man and at the present time, there is no evidence that supports such a wild claim.

I also believe, as George H. Smith pointed out in his book Atheism: The Case Against God, that all Christians, when pinned down with logic, are nothing more than Agnostics.

 

[Gringo Starr]

There is a difference between the two terms.

I have provided the correct definition of the word 'Agnostic', which comes from the very man who coined the term on a different thread. Here it is:



Atheism = the lack of belief in a god or gods.

The difference between the two is the Agnostic believes that if there is a god, it is unknowable to man; the Atheist believes that everything is knowable to man and at the present time, there is no evidence that supports such a wild claim.

I also believe, as George H. Smith pointed out in his book Atheism: The Case Against God, that all Christians, when pinned down with logic, are nothing more than Agnostics.

I know theres a difference...but i got a lil different definition of Agnostic(from the dictionary)...but i see where your comin from...just all this talk of science and lack of evidence...made me come to the conclusion....

 

[2-0-Sixx]

I know theres a difference...but i got a lil different definition of Agnostic(from the dictionary)...but i see where your comin from...just all this talk of science and lack of evidence...made me come to the conclusion....

Yeah, unfortunately dictionaries don't always have the correct definitions. I've seen some pretty fucked up definitions of Atheism in my day too. But, with the term Agnostic, there is no better source then the man who created the term.

 

[HERESY]

The souls are constitutionally sat-chit-ananda - eternal, full of knowledge and bliss.

Where does this knowledge and bliss come from? Is it random or do the souls have ALL knowledge and bliss?

When the soul is conditioned under the material energy it acts according to the capacity of whatever body it indwells.

So what is instinct?

Desire plays a part in what form a soul takes to, but it does not have the ultimate say so. God, the Supreme Soul, makes that judgement. Everything works under His direction.

How did the souls come to the knowledge of desire?

Something that has no beginning and has no end is said to exist eternally.

So you're telling me the soul exists outside of time? If the soul "falls into the material world" where does it fall from? Isn't that it's starting point? What is the soul doing before it enters this realm? If a person can remember a past life on another planet why can't a person remember what they were doing BEFORE they entered the womb? Why can't a person remember what they were doing while they were a mantis?

You may say they can't remember the mantis part because the mantis does not the capicity to think as a human. Thats fair but if a person behaves as a dog (as you listed) shouldn't it go both ways? If you're able to remember your life as a human (remember you are the SAME soul) what blocks you from remembering the lower thought?

As I already explained, the soul moves up the evolutionary ladder. It may start out in a microscopic organism and then move up eventually to the form of a plant, then an aquatic, then some other type of animal, etc, etc.

So it goes in that order? Is that your final take on it? Amoeba first, plant second, shark third human eventually?

Desire is not so much a factor in this stage. But in the human stage it is.

Why? Because humans have free choice?


animal, etc, etc. Desire is not so much a factor in this stage. But in the human stage it is. The Vedas say that there are 8,400,000 species of life in this universe. What they refer to as species has more to do with the development of consciousness than with the physiological traits, by the way.


Ok.

Out of those, 400,000 are "species" of human. Based on our desire and our karma we are either promoted to the planets of the demigods, degraded to the life of some lower species or possibly to some hellish planet, or we completely transcend the material world altogether. A man who desires to have sexual gratification all the time may, in his next life, become a dog (for example). That way he can go around humping other dogs, or whatever he feels like humping. If that is his desire then he will be accomodated. That is just an example, there are other factors that go into it. The whole Vedic conception is that this material world is manifest to accomodate the desires of the living entities (souls). It is by God's mercy that He has created the human form so that the souls have the chance to transcend this material energy, which is actually inferior to the soul.

So it's all an illusion? When all souls no longer need to be accomodated what happens?


Somehow or other (the circumstances unknown) a soul falls into the material world with some type of desire to enjoy apart from God.


So the smart souls don't even bother by coming to this realm right? If these souls are "generic" how do they have a knowledge of god, whats right and what is wrong? How do they know what feels good or what feels bad?

Whether this initial falldown constitutes the soul taking shelter in a human form to begin with or if it means that the soul will take to the form of an ant, I don't know. That is up to the individual.

But I thought the souls moved up on an evolutionary ladder? If thats the case choice should be null and void.

 

[HERESY]

The probation period is necessary because God feels that it is necessary. Just as God felt it necessary to create the material universe in the first place.

You told me WHY god felt it necessary to create the material but can't explain why the probation period is necessary? I see a problem here.

The human form of life is not so cheap. Let us say, for example, a soul falls down and first takes birth in the body of a fish. For some reason or another they had some desire that was best played out in the fish form. Well, the fish does not have a very advanced capacity of consciousness so the next form will be just slightly more advanced, then the next one will advance a bit more. On and on, and on until one is advanced to the stage of human. The soul doesn't go from being a fish to being a human right away.

Who is to say what is more advanced or not? So what your telling me is once a soul chooses to fall from the middle of nowehere, it goes on and on until it reaches a human body. What are the conditions of coming to that point? What is the LAST step BEFORE human? If you can go from aomeba to plant to fish and up the ladder what is the last step before the crossroad?

The whole construct of the material world is for the conditioned souls to enjoy their perverted desires. This constitutes the compromise of consciousness. If the soul was pure in consciousness then they would be fully cognizant of their relationship with God. Since they are not, God has arranged that they advance gradually from their animalistic desires until they have the human form.

So the material world is made for perverted desires and to act them out? When the soul no longer desires what happens? Choice?



I have to smash out. 916 please do NOT reply to my statements until I have finished my posts. It will be easier to keep up that way.


thanks


:hgk:

 

[HERESY]

@916 I appreciate you not making a reply until I was able to get the rest of it together. I was able to answer other posts on the siccness but posts like these take time. Once again thanks.

Vedic Scripture according to Vedic Scripture. You find someone who does not accept the teachings I promote and we will address their points one by one. There is a sect of philosophers called the Mayavadi who interpret the Vedas according to their whimsy. They are easily defeated by the texts of the Vedas themselves. They often use word-jugglery to try and reason how the texts don't mean what they say (an example of this is in my conversation with Xianex).

IMHO I don't believe the teachings of Ramana Maharshi, Poonja and others coincide with what you promote. If this world is simply an illusion and created for our selfish desires isn't the book an illusion as well? Yes the Vedas may help you realize your religion/doctrine/dogma but do they help you realize YOU and what YOU are? Can YOU be applied to "I"? Or is it all simply an illusion? At what point is individuality removed? Self realization?

No. I don't believe York. I just used that as an example of someone claiming to be reinarnated from another planet because I couldn't think of any others on the top of my head. The Vedas speak of personalities on different planets. As far as one of them reincarnating on this planet, I don't know. I'll have to look into that.

Ok.

In general the period of time for each species is the same for each soul. But I am sure God is not limited from making exceptions. There is an example in the Vedas of some devotee of God who happens to think of a deer at the time of death. And so he takes birth as a deer, but by the mercy of the Lord he is able to remember his past life and his devotion to God. So things don't always work the same way.

The soul has a desire to to like and dislike various things but the soul does not have the ability to dictate when and for how long? What do you mean the time for each species is the same for each soul? If something is eternal isn't it out of time? Should time be a factor? Do all ants die and the same time? Do all humans die at the same time?

Better material existence refers to the planets of the demigods. Krsna states in the Bhagavad-Gita that those who desire to enjoy with the demigods are less intelligent. Of course, living in the upper planetary system is more comfortable than living in the lower, hellish planets. So "better" and "worse" pertain to the advancement of consciousness and the amount of suffering. Material existence of any kind is not something to look forward to. The Vedas explain that there are three modes of material nature: the mode of ignorance, the mode of passion and the mode of goodness. The demigods reside in the mode of goodness but spiritual life even transcends the material mode of goodness.

Are the less intelligent because of the choice they made or because they have less knowledge (a child compared to a college grad or professor)?If material existance is something to not look forward to why should one look forward to being reborn over and over so he could serve god? Why make the choice? Because of devotion? You're that devoted that you'll throw yourself for a loop over and over? When does god say enough? What is spiritual life?

Because they do not understand right or wrong. So they gradually advance to that stage. Your answer is in your question. Initially they desired something wrong, meaning that they desired to enjoy apart from God. So they play out those desires and gradually advance to the human form where they may transcend (understand and engage themselves in what is right), or they may get kicked back down to some lower species and have to undergo the same evolutionary, transmigration process.

If the human form is where right and wrong occur why is a probation period needed? Your placing something on probabtion that doesn't understand WHY it's being placed on probation. When you swat a fly does it understand why you have struck it? No? If a soul has dropped down (as you put it) and it starts small and works up shouldn't some sort of knowledge be gained while it climbs the ladder? If not why climb the ladder at all? Probation period = USELESS because no learning or correction period can be achieved.

When it says "made to enter into the womb..." it is just explaining how such a thing is arranged. It doesn't mean that the soul is actually made or created, because elsewhere it explains that the soul is eternal.

I'll address this later.

The man is suitable because this soul's (the one soon to take birth) contaminated consciousness has advanced to the human stage. The last stop before getting a human body? I don't know. The starting point differs. That depends on the individual. This is insignificant anyway.

Nothing is insignificant when you make a claim that you go from A-Z in a billion lifetimes. What makes the soul advance? DEATH? Or is it the physical form one takes? If it's the physical form how is a mantis more intelligent than a dog? The dog can bark but has he learned to fly? Has he learned to blend with his surroundings? Why should the physical dictate the spiritual when the spiritual is far superior? BTW if the physical is simply an illusion or something to not be concerned with why does it have power over that which you should be concerned with?

I've already explained this.

As best as you could but I still have unanswered questions. In any event It's all good.

Perhaps.

Doomed to repeat over and over.......

Which previous things? We take shelter in these material bodies due to our ignorance of God. At some level we desired to try and be our own gods rather than devote ourselves to the True God. That is ignorance.

Whats the use of repeated devotion to the true god here? We take shelter due to IGNORANCE or due to CHOICE? Is choosing ignorance of god? Desire to be our own gods or desire to enjoy something without god being a part of it? Please explain.



:HGK:

 

[n9newunsixx5150]

Where does this knowledge and bliss come from? Is it random or do the souls have ALL knowledge and bliss?

This knowledge comes from the fact that the souls are eternally part and parcel of God, the Supreme Knower and the Supreme Knowable. By knowing God we automatically know God's energies. I hope that explains it for you.

So what is instinct?

Usually pertains to a living organism's inclination to eat, sleep, defend and mate; the need to survive. This instinct is born of the material modes of nature. The soul is instinctively seeking shelter in some way to protect itself. That is seen even in the materialistic sense if instinct. I am unsure as to the significance of this question relevant to what I said before, and so I don't know if I am answering this the way you want.

How did the souls come to the knowledge of desire?

Desire is always there.

So you're telling me the soul exists outside of time? If the soul "falls into the material world" where does it fall from? Isn't that it's starting point? What is the soul doing before it enters this realm? If a person can remember a past life on another planet why can't a person remember what they were doing BEFORE they entered the womb? Why can't a person remember what they were doing while they were a mantis?

Some people may be able to remember, but apparently most people don't. The soul is bewildered being tossed around in this ocean of material suffering. So for one to remember a past life is a rare thing.
As for your other question...
Yes, the soul exists outside of "time". The souls fall from the spiritual world. No that fall is not the soul's starting point.

You may say they can't remember the mantis part because the mantis does not the capicity to think as a human. Thats fair but if a person behaves as a dog (as you listed) shouldn't it go both ways? If you're able to remember your life as a human (remember you are the SAME soul) what blocks you from remembering the lower thought?

Material conditioning.

So it goes in that order? Is that your final take on it? Amoeba first, plant second, shark third human eventually?

Something like that. Actually, if you read that thread I made, "the soul, reincarnation and science", Srila Prabhupada mentions this.

Why? Because humans have free choice?

Let me explain this better. Desire is an eternal trait of an eternal soul. Even the animals have desire, but their desire cannot go past the bodily jurisdiction of eating, sleeping, mating and defending. So in regard to understanding the Absolute Truth, the animals generally haven't the capacity for such desires. They can make no inquiries into the Absolute Truth. All they know is hungry, sleepy, horny, survive. The souls who fall down into this position are the one's who have desired such things limited to eating, sleeping, mating and defending. What else is there to explain?

So it's all an illusion? When all souls no longer need to be accomodated what happens?

It is an illusion in that it is temporary.
If such a time occured when no souls were falling down then there would be no material world. All existence would be spiritual because all souls would be fully cognizant of God.

So the smart souls don't even bother by coming to this realm right? If these souls are "generic" how do they have a knowledge of god, whats right and what is wrong? How do they know what feels good or what feels bad?

Some of the souls don't fall down, some of them do. How that works exactly has not been revealed to me. But it is said that once the fallen souls return to God they do not have to return to the material world.
The souls are not "generic" in the way you are implying here. They have knowledge of God. Everything they know is in relation to God. So in that sense all they know is God. When souls see things disconnected from God; when they separate God's energies from Himself and then seek to enjoy those energies - that is called conditioned life. The soul become bewildered out of disassociation from God. That constitutes birth and death and forgetfulness.

But I thought the souls moved up on an evolutionary ladder? If thats the case choice should be null and void.

They move up this ladder if they happen to fall upon that ladder. I can't speak for any individual, not even myself because I don't know where I first fell or even when. I am just not assuming that all souls fall down to the lowest position on the ladder and work their way up. Some may, some may not. Some may start in the human form and then degrade themselves to lower species. Who knows? That is up to the individual. If the individual chooses to subject himself to the animalistic desires then he will become an animal.

 

[n9newunsixx5150]

You told me WHY god felt it necessary to create the material but can't explain why the probation period is necessary? I see a problem here.

The root of your question is:

Why is it necessary that the souls desire to limited their desires to the animal propensities? The "probation period" question is automatically answered once one realizes that the soul desired it!

Who is to say what is more advanced or not? So what your telling me is once a soul chooses to fall from the middle of nowehere, it goes on and on until it reaches a human body. What are the conditions of coming to that point? What is the LAST step BEFORE human? If you can go from aomeba to plant to fish and up the ladder what is the last step before the crossroad?

I have already told you that I do not know the step right before human life.

So the material world is made for perverted desires and to act them out? When the soul no longer desires what happens? Choice?

Desire itself is not the cause of material bondage. There is no time when the soul no longer desires. We simply change our desires from serving the material energy to serving the Proprietor of that energy.

 

[n9newunsixx5150]

@916 I appreciate you not making a reply until I was able to get the rest of it together. I was able to answer other posts on the siccness but posts like these take time. Once again thanks.

No problem.

IMHO I don't believe the teachings of Ramana Maharshi, Poonja and others coincide with what you promote. If this world is simply an illusion and created for our selfish desires isn't the book an illusion as well? Yes the Vedas may help you realize your religion/doctrine/dogma but do they help you realize YOU and what YOU are? Can YOU be applied to "I"? Or is it all simply an illusion? At what point is individuality removed? Self realization?

Fist of all, as I explained already in another post, this world is only an illusion in that it is temporary. And where is the logic that says the Vedas must be illusion since they are placed in an illusory (temporal) world? The Vedic teachings are eternal similar to the way it is said that the Biblical teachings are eternal. Now just because the Bible is here in this world of beginning and ending does that mean that the Bible's teachings must also be of that same nature? I just don't see your logic here.
Does the Vedas help me realize who and what I am? Absolutely. Can "YOU" be applied to "I"? Huh? What is the difference? The self is the self. The "you" is the "I". Individuality is not an illusion. That is mayavadi philosophy. Out of speculation one concludes that variegatedness and individuality is a property of material illusion and so they think that absolute existence is devoid of these things. Because of this speculation they cannot understand the Vedas in their entirety. Self realization means understanding, "God is an individual and I am His individual soul. My position is to render loving service unto Him". It is not, "I don't exist. My individuality is false and I should therefore cease all activity and call it "nirvana"."

The soul has a desire to to like and dislike various things but the soul does not have the ability to dictate when and for how long? What do you mean the time for each species is the same for each soul? If something is eternal isn't it out of time? Should time be a factor? Do all ants die and the same time? Do all humans die at the same time?

The soul doesn't have the capacity to dictate when and for how long if such desires contradict his constitutional position of knowledge. So it is by the grace of God that he is even able to advance through species toward reaching the human form. See, God could grab the turtles and make them all humans but the souls desires are being played out and so God simply advances them gradually rather than abruptly. If the whole reason the material world was created was to accomodate these desires then this becomes understandable. God doesn't have to do anything. He didn't have to give us the facility to play out our desires. He doesn't have to give us the facility to transcend our own prison. Yet He does all these things.
Time is a factor when we are talking about timed factors! LOL. I.e.: material bodies that are born, grow and eventually perish.
Do all ants (or all humans) die at the same time? Of course not. There are even instances in the Vedas when they refer to an animal being killed "untimely" and so it has to be born again as that species to live out the rest of it's karma.

Are the less intelligent because of the choice they made or because they have less knowledge (a child compared to a college grad or professor)?If material existance is something to not look forward to why should one look forward to being reborn over and over so he could serve god? Why make the choice? Because of devotion? You're that devoted that you'll throw yourself for a loop over and over? When does god say enough? What is spiritual life?

They make a bad choice because their knowledge is covered by ignorance.
One who looks forward to serving God is indifferent to being reborn or not. Their desires are whatever God desires. So they think in the manner of, "God, you can do with me what you like. Just please let me continue to serve you". Yes, they are that devoted that they will accept the worst conditions so long as they may remember and love God. This is not to say that God is in the business of placing His devotees in the worst conditions necessarily. But you have a good account relating to this in the Bible with Job. God allowed for His devotee, Job to have all kinds of inconveniences happen to him. A pure devotee of God is ecstatic in love with God. Nothing else matters. This is spiritual life. I think this is something you can appreciate.

If the human form is where right and wrong occur why is a probation period needed? Your placing something on probabtion that doesn't understand WHY it's being placed on probation. When you swat a fly does it understand why you have struck it? No? If a soul has dropped down (as you put it) and it starts small and works up shouldn't some sort of knowledge be gained while it climbs the ladder? If not why climb the ladder at all? Probation period = USELESS because no learning or correction period can be achieved.

It doesn't understand why because it sacrificed it's capacity to understand why. Plain and simple. Climbing the ladder means gradually progressing toward spiritual realization. If one gets to that point where they may attain spiritual realization but they desire to continue acting animalistically then they can go back to being a dog or a hog, or whatever. Probation period = process of burning up the karma born of animalistic desires just enough to understand God from wrong.

Nothing is insignificant when you make a claim that you go from A-Z in a billion lifetimes. What makes the soul advance? DEATH? Or is it the physical form one takes? If it's the physical form how is a mantis more intelligent than a dog? The dog can bark but has he learned to fly? Has he learned to blend with his surroundings? Why should the physical dictate the spiritual when the spiritual is far superior? BTW if the physical is simply an illusion or something to not be concerned with why does it have power over that which you should be concerned with?

The physical only dictates the spiritual when the spiritual surrenders to it. That is why the physical seems to have power, because we let it have power.

Whats the use of repeated devotion to the true god here? We take shelter due to IGNORANCE or due to CHOICE? Is choosing ignorance of god? Desire to be our own gods or desire to enjoy something without god being a part of it? Please explain.

1. The use is that we will devote and serve one or another, so it is best to serve the One we are eternally related to. Here or there doesn't matter. Repeatedly in birth and death or eternally in our pure spiritual bodies is not the concern of the devotee.

2. We take shelter under this material energy due to ignorant choices.

3. Desiring to enjoy apart from God means trying to be God, the Supreme Enjoyer (Purusha). Trying to be in control outside of God means trying to be God, the Supreme Controller (Isvara). We are neither Purusha nor Isvara. We are prakrti (nature). More specifically, we are paraprakrti (spiritual nature). There is also the material nature (aparaprakrti). We are superior to that nature. God, Purusha, enjoys His part and parcel prakrti-souls. He allows them the capacity to choose because that constitutes the reciprocation of love. Thus some souls fall from their constitutional position and so God engages them in this material process in order to develop that hidden spark of Divine Love. He does not force. Such a thing contradicts the whole concept of love.

Does this explain it well?

 

[butter]

logic, reason, and science have no place in understanding the etheric planes...thats why western science can't comprehend space travel, healing, time travel etc., however there are some who know this
and covert actions have been takin to keep such individuals knowledge and findings hidden from the masses.

 

[n9newunsixx5150]

Heresy,

This is an interesting link. If you have the time take a look:

http://www.geocities.com/july9th_77/east_west.htm

It answers one of your questions as well...

Who is to say what is more advanced or not? So what your telling me is once a soul chooses to fall from the middle of nowehere, it goes on and on until it reaches a human body. What are the conditions of coming to that point? What is the LAST step BEFORE human? If you can go from aomeba to plant to fish and up the ladder what is the last step before the crossroad?

Rev. Hart: I have a question and I wonder if it's answered in the Vedic literature. Through which species do we enter the human form?

Satyaraja Dasa: Yes, the Vedic tradition outlines this quite clearly. But there are variables. A basic hierarchy of bodily forms is delineated....One evolves from fish to plant life. And then to insects, birds, and, finally, beasts. From there, we find three gateways into the human form....Basically, if one is born as a human in the mode of goodness, he comes by way of a cow's body. A human in the mode of passion comes through a lion gateway. And a human in the mode of ignorance comes by way of a monkey body....This is general....Of course, in order to be a highly evolved human, in the mode of goodness, one will generally pass through many human forms....This is another sense of it...