Why some scientists believe in God.

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Nov 10, 2004
993
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#1
SCIENCE is constantly unraveling new secrets about the universe and the life that thrives on our planet. Nonetheless, scientists and laymen alike still face such fundamental questions as these: How did the universe come to be? What existed before that? Why does the universe appear to be expressly designed to support life? How did life arise here on earth?

Science still cannot really answer such questions. Some people doubt that it ever will. Many, then, have felt compelled to rethink their views and beliefs. Let us consider three of the mysteries that are leading some scientists to wonder about the existence of a Creator.

A Fine-Tuned Universe—By Chance?One major question has to do with the fine-tuning of our cosmos. Why is the universe equipped with fixed physical laws and with natural constants that are precisely and ideally suited to support a planet like ours and all the life on it?

What do we mean by fine-tuning? Consider, for instance, the precise settings of four fundamental physical forces: electromagnetism, gravity, strong nuclear force, and weak nuclear force.* These forces affect every object in the universe. They are set and balanced so precisely that even slight changes could render the universe lifeless.

To many reasoning minds, the explanation simply has to be something more than mere coincidence. John Polkinghorne, formerly a physicist at Cambridge University, concluded: "When you realize that the laws of nature must be incredibly finely tuned to produce the universe we see, that conspires to plant the idea that the universe did not just happen, but that there must be a purpose behind it."

Australian physicist Paul Davies made a similar point: "There is no doubt that many scientists are . . . scornful of the notion that there might exist a God, or even an impersonal creative principle." He added: "Personally I do not share their scorn. . . . I cannot believe that our existence in this universe is a mere quirk of fate, . . . an incidental blip in the great cosmic drama."

The Challenge of ComplexityA second problem challenging today's scientists involves the sheer complexity of the world around us. Common sense tells us that the more complex an event, the less likely it is to occur by chance. Consider an example.

There are myriad chemical reactions that need to be precisely staged to form DNA, the building block of life. Three decades ago Dr. Frank Salisbury of Utah State University, U.S.A., calculated the odds of the spontaneous formation of a basic DNA molecule essential for the appearance of life. The calculations revealed the probability to be so tiny that it is considered mathematically impossible.#

Complexity is especially evident when living organisms have complex parts that would be useless without other complex parts. Let us focus on the example of reproduction.

According to evolutionary theories, living things continued to reproduce as they became ever more complex. At some stage, though, the female of a number of species had to develop reproductive cells requiring fertilization by a male with complementary reproductive cells. In order to supply the proper number of chromosomes to the offspring, each parent's reproductive cells undergo a remarkable process called meiosis, whereby cells from each parent are left with half the usual number of chromosomes. This process prevents the offspring from having too many chromosomes.

Of course, the same process would have been needed for other species. How, then, did the "first mother" of each species become capable of reproducing with a fully developed "first father"? How could both of them have suddenly been able to halve the number of chromosomes in their reproductive cells in the manner needed to produce a healthy offspring with some characteristics of both parents? And if these reproductive features developed gradually, how would the male and female of each species have survived while such vital features were still only partially formed?

In even a single species, the odds against this reproductive interdependence coming about by chance are beyond measuring. The chance that it arose in one species after another defies reasonable explanation. Can a theoretical process of evolution explain such complexity? How could accidental, random, purposeless events result in such intricately interrelated systems? Living things are full of characteristics that show evidence of foresight and planning—pointing to an intelligent Planner.

Many scholars have come to such a conclusion. For example, mathematician William A. Dembski wrote that the "intelligent design" evident in "observable features of the natural world . . . can be adequately explained only by recourse to intelligent causes." Molecular biochemist Michael Behe sums up the evidence this way: "You can be a good Catholic and believe in Darwinism. Biochemistry has made it increasingly difficult, however, to be a thoughtful scientist and believe in it."

A third mystery that has puzzled some scientists is related to the fossil record. If evolution proceeded over aeons of time, we should expect to find a host of intermediate organisms, or links, between the major types of living things. However, the countless fossils unearthed since Darwin's time have proved disappointing in that respect. The missing links are just that—missing!

A number of scientists have therefore concluded that the evidence for evolution is too weak and contradictory to prove that life evolved. Aerospace engineer Luther D. Sutherland wrote in his book Darwin's Enigma: "The scientific evidence shows that whenever any basically different type of life first appeared on Earth, all the way from single-celled protozoa to man, it was complete and its organs and structures were complete and fully functional. The inescapable deduction to be drawn from this fact is that there was some sort of pre-existing intelligence before life first appeared on Earth."

On the other hand, the fossil record closely matches the general order of the appearance of living forms found in the Bible book of Genesis. Donald E. Chittick, a physical chemist who earned a doctorate degree at Oregon State University, comments: "A direct look at the fossil record would lead one to conclude that animals reproduced after their kind as Genesis states. They did not change from one kind into another. The evidence now, as in Darwin's day, is in agreement with the Genesis record of direct creation. Animals and plants continue to reproduce after their kind. In fact, the conflict between paleontology (study of fossils) and Darwinism is so strong that some scientists are beginning to believe that the in-between forms will never be found."

Facing the EvidenceThe foregoing represents just the tip of an iceberg of unanswered questions that puzzle those who dismiss the evidence of a Creator. Some scientists realize that the rejection of God is a path paved, not by hard evidence and careful logic, but by hopeful assumptions and conjectures.

Thus, after a lifetime of fruitful scientific research and work, astronomer Allan Sandage said: "It was my science that drove me to the conclusion that the world is much more complicated than can be explained by science. It is only through the supernatural that I can understand the mystery of existence."
 

ThaG

Sicc OG
Jun 30, 2005
9,597
1,687
113
#2
get the fuck out of here with you distorted understanding of things, you will get destroyed with a thorough rebuttal later today

I am amazed that there so many people ready to buy that creationist crap without giving it a second of critical thinking...
 

ThaG

Sicc OG
Jun 30, 2005
9,597
1,687
113
#3
SCIENCE is constantly unraveling new secrets about the universe and the life that thrives on our planet. Nonetheless, scientists and laymen alike still face such fundamental questions as these: How did the universe come to be? What existed before that? Why does the universe appear to be expressly designed to support life? How did life arise here on earth?

Science still cannot really answer such questions. Some people doubt that it ever will. Many, then, have felt compelled to rethink their views and beliefs. Let us consider three of the mysteries that are leading some scientists to wonder about the existence of a Creator.

A Fine-Tuned Universe—By Chance?One major question has to do with the fine-tuning of our cosmos. Why is the universe equipped with fixed physical laws and with natural constants that are precisely and ideally suited to support a planet like ours and all the life on it?

What do we mean by fine-tuning? Consider, for instance, the precise settings of four fundamental physical forces: electromagnetism, gravity, strong nuclear force, and weak nuclear force.* These forces affect every object in the universe. They are set and balanced so precisely that even slight changes could render the universe lifeless.
There is something called the anthropic principle, i.e it doesn't make sense to ask why the universe has the properties allowing us to exist because if ti didn't we would not be here to ask these questions. Also, we do not know how the universe started but there's a pretty good chance that a huge number of universes exist and most of them do not have the properties supporting life...

To many reasoning minds, the explanation simply has to be something more than mere coincidence. John Polkinghorne, formerly a physicist at Cambridge University, concluded: "When you realize that the laws of nature must be incredibly finely tuned to produce the universe we see, that conspires to plant the idea that the universe did not just happen, but that there must be a purpose behind it."

Australian physicist Paul Davies made a similar point: "There is no doubt that many scientists are . . . scornful of the notion that there might exist a God, or even an impersonal creative principle." He added: "Personally I do not share their scorn. . . . I cannot believe that our existence in this universe is a mere quirk of fate, . . . an incidental blip in the great cosmic drama."
If these scientists think there is a Godm they are not good scientists, period.

The fact that the universe seems to be precisely tuned for our existence, does by no way imply that it was fine tuned for our existence. If you change the constants, you get a very different universe, but it will be different not just because there is no life in it. So, even if you accept that there is fine-tuning (which is not at all necessary because of the anthropic principle), the interpretation of this observation as a proof for the existence of God is based entirely on the already existing assumption that God exists...

The universe can be just as well fine tuned for the existence of stars, galaxies, maybe even other life forms, but not us, i.e. life in Earth is still a mere product of chance...

This argument just doesn't work, because of the aforementioned reasons and it is very sad that people who call themselves scientists will fall in this trap

The idea that an universe so unimaginably big and so old as ours is there for the sole purpose of our existence on a small insignificant planet somewhere in it, and that it was designed by a God who sent his son to us for our sins, is just silly


The Challenge of ComplexityA second problem challenging today's scientists involves the sheer complexity of the world around us. Common sense tells us that the more complex an event, the less likely it is to occur by chance. Consider an example.

There are myriad chemical reactions that need to be precisely staged to form DNA, the building block of life. Three decades ago Dr. Frank Salisbury of Utah State University, U.S.A., calculated the odds of the spontaneous formation of a basic DNA molecule essential for the appearance of life. The calculations revealed the probability to be so tiny that it is considered mathematically impossible.#
This argument appears again and again and all it does is reveal the incompetency of those who use it

Nobody claims that life started with DNA or cells, it didn't. In fact, several nucleotide long RNAs have the ability to catalyze their own reproduction. The chance of these arising is very high.

Not only that, it is a fallacy to claim that a particular DNA/RNA molecule should have appeared, because many different in sequence biopolymers can catalyze the same reaction. This increase "the chance" you're talking about many orders of magnitude

More on the topic:

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/list.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB010.html

Complexity is especially evident when living organisms have complex parts that would be useless without other complex parts. Let us focus on the example of reproduction.

According to evolutionary theories, living things continued to reproduce as they became ever more complex. At some stage, though, the female of a number of species had to develop reproductive cells requiring fertilization by a male with complementary reproductive cells. In order to supply the proper number of chromosomes to the offspring, each parent's reproductive cells undergo a remarkable process called meiosis, whereby cells from each parent are left with half the usual number of chromosomes. This process prevents the offspring from having too many chromosomes.

Of course, the same process would have been needed for other species. How, then, did the "first mother" of each species become capable of reproducing with a fully developed "first father"? How could both of them have suddenly been able to halve the number of chromosomes in their reproductive cells in the manner needed to produce a healthy offspring with some characteristics of both parents? And if these reproductive features developed gradually, how would the male and female of each species have survived while such vital features were still only partially formed?

In even a single species, the odds against this reproductive interdependence coming about by chance are beyond measuring. The chance that it arose in one species after another defies reasonable explanation. Can a theoretical process of evolution explain such complexity? How could accidental, random, purposeless events result in such intricately interrelated systems? Living things are full of characteristics that show evidence of foresight and planning—pointing to an intelligent Planner.
LOL

If you think there was such a thing as "the first father" you have ZERO, I repeat, ZERO understanding of life cycles. First learn what the words haplont, diplont and haplodiplont mean, what these imply about the evolution of meiosis and then come to argue...

What we're dealing here is people using their own ignorance to prove that their idiotic claims (ultimately arising from that same ignorance) are true...

It doesn't work like that

Many scholars have come to such a conclusion. For example, mathematician William A. Dembski wrote that the "intelligent design" evident in "observable features of the natural world . . . can be adequately explained only by recourse to intelligent causes." Molecular biochemist Michael Behe sums up the evidence this way: "You can be a good Catholic and believe in Darwinism. Biochemistry has made it increasingly difficult, however, to be a thoughtful scientist and believe in it."
do you have even a vague idea who Dembski and Behe are?

A third mystery that has puzzled some scientists is related to the fossil record. If evolution proceeded over aeons of time, we should expect to find a host of intermediate organisms, or links, between the major types of living things. However, the countless fossils unearthed since Darwin's time have proved disappointing in that respect. The missing links are just that—missing!
shameless lie

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CC/CC200.html

A number of scientists have therefore concluded that the evidence for evolution is too weak and contradictory to prove that life evolved. Aerospace engineer Luther D. Sutherland wrote in his book Darwin's Enigma: "The scientific evidence shows that whenever any basically different type of life first appeared on Earth, all the way from single-celled protozoa to man, it was complete and its organs and structures were complete and fully functional. The inescapable deduction to be drawn from this fact is that there was some sort of pre-existing intelligence before life first appeared on Earth."
read the thread I posted about Evo-Devo

Read the whole talkorigins archive

then think about whether you can make the same assertion, that evolution is not supported by evidence

if you have the intellectual capacity to do that, of course...

On the other hand, the fossil record closely matches the general order of the appearance of living forms found in the Bible book of Genesis. Donald E. Chittick, a physical chemist who earned a doctorate degree at Oregon State University, comments: "A direct look at the fossil record would lead one to conclude that animals reproduced after their kind as Genesis states. They did not change from one kind into another. The evidence now, as in Darwin's day, is in agreement with the Genesis record of direct creation. Animals and plants continue to reproduce after their kind. In fact, the conflict between paleontology (study of fossils) and Darwinism is so strong that some scientists are beginning to believe that the in-between forms will never be found."
LOL

How about grasses and plants appearing before arthropods and fish? This is what the Bible says...

Have ever actually read the scientific literature???

Facing the EvidenceThe foregoing represents just the tip of an iceberg of unanswered questions that puzzle those who dismiss the evidence of a Creator. Some scientists realize that the rejection of God is a path paved, not by hard evidence and careful logic, but by hopeful assumptions and conjectures.

Thus, after a lifetime of fruitful scientific research and work, astronomer Allan Sandage said: "It was my science that drove me to the conclusion that the world is much more complicated than can be explained by science. It is only through the supernatural that I can understand the mystery of existence."
then you're a bad scientist, period
 

ThaG

Sicc OG
Jun 30, 2005
9,597
1,687
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#5
are you going to comment on what I said or you're just calling me an asshole because you can't say anything against it and right now you're sitting in some corner crying, trying to alleviate the suffering of your Christian soul??
 
Nov 10, 2004
993
0
0
#6
I just don't understand why everytime someone posts about something you don't believe in, you insult there intelligence. Why? Can't you discuss and debate without getting all personal?
 

ThaG

Sicc OG
Jun 30, 2005
9,597
1,687
113
#7
I can and I do, but only to a certain point;

when the opposite side's position is so ridiculously silly and so childishly defended, it is hard not to tell what you think about that person's intellectual abilities...

still, you received a detailed response and you did not answer it - you could say that you accept the answer and you are convinced or you can go on to refute my points, just do something
 

ThaG

Sicc OG
Jun 30, 2005
9,597
1,687
113
#12
I will try to explain this once again, because there seems to be a lot of confusion:

You can be a scientist in 2 ways - as a profession or as something you are as a person; you can be only one of these, you can be both

A lot of scientists are both, but far from all of them

Keep in mind that for many scientists, science is a career as any other, especially for a lot of those in the industry. If science is something you do only for living, you can be following the scientific method only when you're working and after you leave the lab, you can go to church. And this is what often happens

Now if you are in the other category, you approach everything in this world with the tools of science. For these people it is impossible to believe in God, and they are the real scientists, for science is a lot more than a profession; it is our best way of discovering the truth about the world, thus we should approach each and every thing with the scientific method, if we don't want to live in delusion.

Very few people fall in that category, though, even among practicing scientists, which is really sad