VOTE on muhammed

HERESY · Feb 12, 2006

And your point is?

From here on out assume that I know just as much about islam as you do. I say this because I don't need a crash course on islam 101.

Because REAL christians are taught to pray ALL THE TIME. Not when the sun rises, the clock strikes 12 or when the sun fades over the horizen.

What does the bible say about this? It goes into GREAT detail concerning those who claim they are saved and doing as you please. I suggest you learn more about the real christian faith before you pass your info or opinion as fact.

Muslims DO have a gurantee and its in BOLD.

I love God more than myself, but at times THAT is questionable. This is coming from THE ARM OF GOD, THE PROPHET OF DOOM, GODS SWORD, and GODS SON. IMHO most muslims (especially those partaking in the riots) are a tad fanatical. Muhammad is held at a higher standard because he is the seal of the prophets, he is your prophet and he is the first prophet to enter heaven with his followers? Ok lets do two things here:

1. Give me your definition of Prophet.

2. Explain to me who went first Jesus or Muhammad and what happened to the followers of Jesus when he ascended to heaven? Did they ascend or did they die and go to heaven? Were they told to wait outside?

I want YOUR definition and answers.

Your reason for muslims not making a fuss over Jesus cartoons was NOT because they don't hold them to the same standard but, "Christians themselves are not doing anything about it."

This is PAGAN christianity you are talking about. I advise you to learn more about TRUE christianity and learn the difference between teh two.

SEE THE ABOVE.

If everyone should be a muslim (according to islam) WHY the need for SEPERATION and DISTINCTION between HIS PEOPLE and US? If ONE religion should exist you should not have Jesus followers and muhammad followers. You should have GOD/ALLAH followers and NOTHING else.

SEE THE ABOVE. What teachings of Jesus have been changed?

Proof is in your posts.

The only PEOPLE OF THE WAY you have spoken to (from what I can tell) is MEXICAN COMMANDO and MYSELF. This is DIFFERENT from "christianity". When you cease confusing the two you'll be able to learn a bit more.

See the above. Let me shed some light and hopefully you understand. We do not write these things down and keep websites. These things are given to us by God, and we keep them in our hearts until we are directed to speak or move (call to action.) So now you're asking "how do you know its god?" My answer is his people know his voice. And now you're asking "how do you know if someone is a follower or not", we have a bond and WE know.

My advice to you would be to STUDY the KJV with a greek lexicon and Strongs concordance. This is different from READING it. The fact you do see similarities between the two may help you in your studies.

Can you do me a favor? Look up the Arabic word for PRAISE used in that verse. IMHO muslims ARE worshipping him (muhammad) by, placing him on a higher level and KILLING in his name. (Christians have killed in gods name but that is not my point.)

Fanatical love (which a lot of muslims have) IS a form of worship.

shoowilla · Feb 12, 2006

Muslims do not worship Mohammad but yes there is fanatical love, its part of being a muslim, its in the sunnah. Love, thats where it stops.

If you Playing the lottery forever i can guarantee you a win too but most of the time you will loose. The time some people will spend in Hell before they leave to paradise could be one second to millions of years. So if you would like to call it a gurantee i guess

1. There are prophets and there are messengers, Prophets come with their unique message from God, prohpets like Ibrahim (suhoofi Ibrahim), Moosa (Tawrat or Torah), Dawood or David (Zaboor), Isa(Injeel), Mohammad (Quran) pbut...among others. Messengers on the other hand dont have a certain book or scriptures but they come with the same scriptures as the prohpet before them among other people who did not live in the middle east there is over 124,000 of them.

2. First Jesus was not ascended into paradise, no one will reside in paradise until after judgement day. When people die they dont go to paradise or hell. When a person who did good in life dies Judgement day comes to him in no time its like he took a nap and woke up. People who did bad in life and had many bad deeds will get tormented in the grave, they dont go to hell yet but their souls get tormented. Some people for instance will get punished in the grave that way they get their punishment and come judgement day they have paid their dues and enter heaven. So to answer your question Jesus righteous followers arent feeling anything right now and will not awaken until Judgement day. Judgement day is when all of mankind awakens from being dead, including Mohammad s.a.w and Jesus pbuh when he dies.

By the way about that hadith, there are hadiths where the prophet s.a.w says to love him more than one loves himself and his family. So what muslims are doing is not going against anything(except the rioting and sensless killing), neither is it worshipping, that my friend is something you wish.

shoowilla · Feb 12, 2006

Also the explanation i posted for that hadith is correct and God knows best. But give me the Source of the hadith i.e bukhari, muslim, tirmidhi etc... and the hadith number and ill ask a scholar to explain it.

HERESY · Feb 12, 2006

I am going to go back and address everything else but for now I want to address two things:

Isa (Jesus for those of you who don't know) NEVER had a "book". Yeshi quoted from the OLD testament, not from the Injeel. If the Injeel is the new testament you are proven incorrect by history. Now answer this question. Where in the quran does it say the injeel is corrupted, and where does muhhamad instruct the reader to read an uncorrupted version? Where are the scrolls of Abraham? Now let me ask you a question. Do you believe the biblical definition of a Prophet?

This contradicts traditional muslim teaching. Are you one of the muslims that believe "allah raised jesus" means he exalted jesus and did not bring him to heaven? If so where is Jesus right now?

When will Jesus die and where is he at right now?

Please do NOT mention the hadith. Lets stick to the quran. Thanks.

shoowilla · Feb 12, 2006

If you like to believe that

Not sure off the top of my head but ill ask a hafith and get back to you.

Huh?

Dont exist anymore. Nothing that is Gods words exist completely untouched except for the Quran.

not sure if i understand you, whats the biblical definition of a prohpet?

This is a matter of aqeedah, and aqeedah is a vast area. But from what i know Jesus is not in heaven yet and God knows best where he is, ill ask a scholar because i dont want to speculate, or if you want to search for that go to www.islamqa.com

I wont mention it anymore i guess, but you asked me about it.

shoowilla · Feb 12, 2006

You know what i am wrong and i apologize i actually went and researched it and heres what i found http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=43148&dgn=4
Jesus was raised into heaven and alhamdillah now i know, but hey thats the beauty you learn something everyday and im still a student of the deen and forever will be. Again i apologize and this is why i dont like to speak on subjects which i am not sure of, although i though i knew that one.

Ive always heard heavens but thought it wasnt really heaven by making assumptions through some hadiths, but the hadiths spoke after jesus pbuh death which didnt happen yet.

MEXCOM · Feb 13, 2006

shoowilla said:

Then prove it. Use the Quran, the bible, and outside sources please.

shoowilla said:

Is your reading comprehension really that limited? The man asked you this: Where does Mohammad tell us we can find an uncorrupted version of the Old Testament?

shoowilla said:

Dude! The Torah, the Tanak, and the Gospels predate the Quran by THOUSANDS and HUNDRES of years (respectively). You claim they are the same religion (Islam) only that Christianity and Judaism are perverted versions of the truth. Yet you don't know the biblical meaning of prophet? The "Jews/Pre-Islamic Muslims" [or whatever the hell you want to call them] had a notion as to what a prophet was. A prophet IS THE VOICE of God. A prophet was a seer and would foretell the future. I have prophesized before. I gave people messages. Warned them in the name of God. Some listened. Most didn't. ALL my "prophecies" have come true.

Perhaps you should study the Old Testament and see where it takes you. Because as I see it this is were Islam and "Christianity" disagree. Islam throws out Judaism, except for the parts they like or feel are "truth," "Christianity" on the other hand compliments Judaism.

shoowilla · Feb 13, 2006

The Quran uses the word injeel atleast 45 times. Search for them.

No, is your reading comprehension that limited? because where did i state that Mohammad said that there is an uncorrupted version of the old testament? I stated the only uncorrupted word of God is the Quran. So before you try to insult me check how your trying to do it, cuz you just made yourself look like a fool.

Hersey made it seem like i didnt know what a prophet was so i asked him to explain

Haha people threw out the teachings of Jesus pbuh and judaisim and they kept the parts they thought fit. What the Quran talks about is the true teachings of Jesus, Moses, David pbut among many others. I only study the old and new testaments to become more knowledgable as ai hold conversations like this, not to find the truth, because i found that along time ago. If your telling me to study the old testament and hersey is telling me to study the KJV or biblical scriptures in greek, you guys should do so yourself and read the prophecies of the coming of Muhammad s.a.w. in both the old and new testaments.

MEXCOM · Feb 13, 2006

shoowilla said:

By *YOUR* logic since neither the Tanak nor the gospels say the word Qu'ran/Kuran it must be a load of shit.

shoowilla said:

Not really. Actually *YOU* proved my point. I made a statement. Your ignorance in the above post solidified it. See eveything I underlined in your post? That's everything that is irrelevant to my original post. I asked for no answer other the one about your reading. Everything following your initial no is unimportant.

shoowilla said:

Truth be told: you don't. At least not biblically. 'I dont think you understand the emytology or significance of the word.

shoowilla said:

Considering Muslims are throwing out thousands of years or HISTORICALLY proven Jewish history, yeah seems like they did throw out/ keep what they wanted.

shoowilla said:

1.Please post these as I've NEVER seen ANY mention or forshadowment of Mohammed in the bible.
2.BTW KJV sucks. I would reccommend the Douay Rheims.

shoowilla · Feb 13, 2006

What logic? you asked me to show you where the Quran says the word Injeel and i answered you. Understanding you is a very difficult thing because you make no sense.

My initial no? You asked me if my reading comprehension is limited i answered no. The question hersey stated came out of no where and made no sense.

ookay. But everything you posted as a definition of a prophet is something i already believed in.

You believe in a way of life that doesnt exist anymore why? because people changed the word of God and what you believe in today is the Word of God incorporated with the words of men, just like me and you. If you want to speak about people throwing out stuff.

shoowilla · Feb 13, 2006

This is a small quick view on it, there is tons of stuff but heres this

The Prophet, The Paraclete, Is Muhammad :
Up to the time of Jesus (peace be upon him), the Jews were still awaiting for the prophet like Moses prophesied in Deuteronomy 18:18. When John the Baptist came, they asked him if he was Christ and he said, “I am not the Christ.” They asked him if he was Elijah, and he said, “I am not.” Then, in apparent reference to Deuteronomy 18:18, they asked him, “Are you the Prophet?” He answered, “No.” (John 1:19-21).

In the Gospel according to John (Chapters 14, 15, 16 KJV), Jesus spoke of the “Paraclete” or comforter who will come after him, who will be sent by God, who will teach new things which the contemporaries of Jesus could not bear. While the Paraclete is described as the spirit of truth, (the meaning of which resembles Muhammad’s famous title al-amin, the trustworthy), he is identified in one verse as the Holy Ghost (John 14:26 KJV). Such a designation is however inconsistent with the profile of that Paraclete. In the words of the Dictionary of the Bible (Ed. J. Mackenzie), “These items, it must be admitted do not give an entirely coherent picture.”

Indeed history tells us that many early Christians understood the Paraclete to be a man and not a spirit. This might explain the followers who responded to some who claimed, without meeting the criteria stipulated by Jesus, to be the awaited “Paraclete.”

It was the Prophet Muhammad who was the Paraclete, Comforter, helper, and admonisher sent by God after Jesus. He testified of Jesus, taught new things which could not be borne at Jesus’ time, he spoke what he heard (the Holy Quran), he dwells with the believers (through his well-preserved teachings). Such teachings will remain forever because he was the last messenger of God, the only Universal Messenger to unite the whole of humanity under God, upon the path of preserved truth. He told of many things to come which came to pass in the minutest detail, meeting the criterion given by Moses to distinguish between the true prophet and the false prophets (Deuteronomy 18:22 KJV). He did “convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment.” (John 16:8).

Blessings of Ishmael And Isaac:
Abraham is widely regarded as the Patriarch of monotheism and the common father of the Jews, Christians and Muslims. Through His second son, Isaac, came all Israelite prophets including such towering figures as Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, Solomon and Jesus. May peace and blessings be upon them all. The advent of these great prophets was in partial fulfillment of God’s promises to bless the nations of earth through the descendants of Abraham (Genesis 12:2-3).1 Such fulfillment is wholeheartedly accepted by Muslims whose faith considers the belief in and respect of all prophets an article of faith.

Was the first born son of Abraham (Ishmael) and his descendants included in God’s covenant and promise? A few verses from the Bible may help shed some light on this question:

1) Genesis 12:2-3 speaks of God’s promise to Abraham and his descendants before any child was born to him.

2) Genesis 17:4 reiterates God’s promise after the birth of Ishmael and before the birth of Isaac.

3) In Genesis, ch. 21, Isaac is specifically blessed, but Ishmael was also specifically blessed and promised by God to become “a great nation,” especially in Genesis 21:13, 18.

4) According to Deuteronomy 21:15-17, the traditional rights and privileges of the first born son are not to be affected by the social status of his mother (being a free woman such as Sarah, Isaac’s mother, or a “maidservant” as Hagar, Ishmael’s mother). This is only consistent with the moral and humanitarian principles of all revealed faiths.

5) The full legitimacy of Ishmael as Abraham’s son and “offspring” and the full legitimacy of his mother, Hagar, as Abraham’s wife, are clearly stated in Genesis 21:13 and 16:3.

After Jesus, the last Israelite messenger and prophet, it was time that God’s promise to bless Ishmael and his descendants be fulfilled. Less than 600 years after Jesus, came the last messenger of God, Muhammad , from the progeny of Abraham through Ishmael. God’s blessings for both of the main branches of Abraham’s family tree were now fulfilled.

Was The Shift of Religious Leadership Prophesied:
Following the rejection of the last Israelite prophet, Jesus, it was about time that God’s promise to make Ishmael a great nation be fulfilled (Genesis 21:13, 18).

Jesus said: “Therefore I tell you that the Kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit.” (Matthew 21:43). Those people among Ishmael’s descendants (the rejected stone in Matthew 21:42) who were victorious against all superpowers of their time as prophesied by Jesus: “He who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed.” (Matthew 21:44).

Muhammad’s Migration Prophesied in the Bible:
Indeed the incident of the migration of the Prophet and his persecuted followers is vividly described in Isaiah 21:13-17. That section foretold as well about the battle of Badr, in which the few ill-armed faithful miraculously defeated the men of Kedar, who sought to destroy Islam and intimidate their own folks who turned to Islam.

Out of Context Coincidence:
Is it possible that the numerous prophecies cited here are, individually and combined, all out of context misinterpretations? Is the opposite true, that such infrequently studied verses support each other consistently and clearly, pointing to the advent of the man who changed the course of human history, the Prophet Muhammad ? Is it reasonable to conclude that all of these prophecies, appearing in different books of the Bible and spoken by various prophets at different times, were all coincidence?

As was mentioned before, God has said about the prophet mentioned in Deuteronomy 18, who is Muhammad : “If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account.” (Deuteronomy 18:19).2

heres another link More in-depthhttp://www.al-sunnah.com/muhammad_in_the_bible.htm

let me know if you need more and also heres a video

What the bible says about Muhammad

Edit the link didnt work so heres the site look for that title in the videos listed

http://www.aswatalislam.net/DisplayFilesP.aspx?TitleID=50016&TitleName=Ahmed_Deedat

I dont have time to read the thousands of different versions so ill stick to the KJV.

MEXCOM · Feb 13, 2006

shoowilla said:

You have just lied. Please quote me on exactly where I asked you this? What I asked you to prove was your statement about Yeshua teaching from a book. I am being very clear and concise. Please prove what you said about Yeshua teaching from a book.

shoowilla said:

That's ALL I asked for. Everything I underlined in the last post and everything I did NOT bold here are irrelevant.

shoowilla said:

Doesn't matter. Just because you already believed it and hold similar views does not mean you knew what a prophet was, who they are, how they "talk" to God, etc.

shoowilla said:

What way of life are you talking about? I am not bound by any mosaic laws applied to the Jews. Some Jews are VERY observant and STILL practice this way of life. And I am living proof that the way of life I believe in still exists.

shoowilla said:

This made no sense. I appreciate your fancy rhetoric but unless you can validly prove anything I won't be able to take you seriously especially when speaking about what I quoted above.

MEXCOM · Feb 13, 2006

DAMMIT! I had a fucking responce to your Mohammed being the paraclete. If I feel like it I'll retype it. But be warned that you ARE misinterpreting scripture and I will prove it to you beyond ANY doubt.

45Yr Old Virgin · Feb 13, 2006

i'll stick to my blue six armed elephant head god thank you

shoowilla · Feb 13, 2006

MEXICANCOMMANDO said:

You said you had never been aware of such allegations, i posted about the paraclete at 10 and you replied by 1230 saying you had a response. Which means you didnt read the whole thing and just read the verses they stated and tried to reply trying to defend yousrself, you are not a scholar, these debates happen between scholars of muslims and christians, check Ahmed deedat this guy knows more about the bible than preachers, priests and scholars of the bible, your knowledge compared to his is cookie crumbs to an elephant. Not saying its much but he shuts down jimmy swagert, and few others speaking in those debates. I could care less what you post because i wont be able to answer you, because i wont talk about something that i am unknoweldgable in, but maybe i can do a cut and paste job. This is not some kids on a website making allegations this is truth check the vids. Visit this link i gave you BECAUSE IT DOESNT JUST TALK ABOUT THE PARACLETE read into it. http://www.al-sunnah.com/muhammad_in_the_bible.htm

MEXCOM · Feb 13, 2006

shoowilla said:

WRONG. Please READ what I said. But you won't so here is the short version: I HAVE NEVER READ ABOUT ANY REFERENCES TO MOHAMMED IN THE BIBLE. NOTHING MORE, NOTHING LESS.

shoowilla said:

Neither are you. ALL YOU DO is cut and paste.

shoowilla said:

Who doesn't?

shoowilla said:

Doubt it. My professor was Brent Walters and the man is possibly the MOST versed man on biblical history. He is also curator of the Ante-Nicene Archive, most of the books if not all I believe are his.

shoowilla said:

Funny thing is that I actually know what I'm talking about. So if this guy holds the same views of the bible that you do then you both know nothing. And if he DOESN'T share the views you do then maybe you should learn why he doesn't.

shoowilla said:

Fake Christians. Nothing worth noting.

shoowilla said:

I know. Because your knowledge are like cookie crumbs and mine is more like an elephant or someshit.

shoowilla said:

Oh man! You're right! You know nothing about the subject but just because some one with more knowledge tells you X is Y you believe them. Isn't it funny that in many Islamic communities questioning either Mohammad OR the Qu'ran is heretical and blasphemous, yet the very bible tells us to question EVERYTHING? God included. And that's what you should do. Question everything. Question Mohammed, question Allah, question Isa, question Ahmed Deeda, etc. And if the answers suits you then go with it. And if it doesn't think about why it doesn't.

HERESY · Feb 13, 2006

Shoowilla you have your hands FULL with MEXCOM so I'll lay off you for now. However, I do want to touch on something.

This is not true. Go back and read my posts. I asked for YOUR definition of a "prophet", and in a later post I asked if you believed the biblical definition. I will NOT assume you know ANYTHING which is why I ask questions.

shoowilla · Feb 13, 2006

Are you serious? whats the difference between those two statements.

Thats right im no scholar and i believe i said i will copy and paste when it came to that subject which i am not knowledgable in

Millions of people who follow the bible. And listen to these priest and preachers read verses out of the bible.

My views of the bible are from what i have learned and what the Quran and the sunnah tell me. This guy on the other hand is a SCHOLAR of the bible, 90 percent of the stuff he says im amazed by and had no clue, this guy got up with the best of the best when it came to the bible scholars and shut them down. He can break it down to you in the armaic and hebrew scriptures.

Fake or not, they had the KJV and got up to debate and got tore up.

is that suppose to be funny? keep your sense of humor out of this.

heres the thing they BACK IT UP. When someone backs up something with facts i believe them. And they use the BIBLE to prove their point. Also isnt that how everyone learned from your professor?

where did this come from? you quoted me and went on a free writing rant that has nothing to do with the quote. This isnt a blog of whatever pops in your head, so peep the link cuz they use the bible itself to prove their point.

shoowilla · Feb 13, 2006

I think we could all agree that the most well learned people when it comes to the bible for the most part are preachers, priests, ministers and archbishops heres a list of some of them with their stories who have converted to islam, these people know about the bible what many dont know. If these are the highest among men in knowledge about the bible then what do they know that you dont know? the truth maybe...

http://thetruereligion.org/modules/xfsection/article.php?articleid=1
Formerly Kenneth L. Jenkins, minister and elder of the Pentecostal Church

http://thetruereligion.org/modules/xfsection/article.php?articleid=241
Former minister (deacon) of the United Methodist Church. He holds a Master's degree in Divinity from Harvard University and a Doctorate in Psychology from the University of Denver. Author of The Cross and the Crescent: An Interfaith Dialogue between Christianity and Islam (ISBN 1-59008-002-5 - Amana Publications, 2001). He has published over 60 articles in the field of clinical psychology, and over 150 articles on Arabian horses

http://thetruereligion.org/modules/xfsection/article.php?articleid=242
Former Archpriest of the Russian Orthodox Church

http://thetruereligion.org/modules/xfsection/article.php?articleid=243
14th century CE Majorcan priest and scholar. From his book 'The Gift to the Intelligent for Refuting the Arguments of the Christians'

http://thetruereligion.org/modules/xfsection/article.php?articleid=244
Former pastor, missionary, professor. Master's degree in Divinity

http://thetruereligion.org/modules/xfsection/article.php?articleid=245
Former Egyptian Coptic priest and missionary

http://thetruereligion.org/modules/xfsection/article.php?articleid=247
Former Lutheran Archbishop

http://thetruereligion.org/modules/xfsection/article.php?articleid=248
Former Jehovah's Witness Minister

http://thetruereligion.org/modules/xfsection/article.php?articleid=249
Former Catholic priest

http://thetruereligion.org/modules/xfsection/article.php?articleid=250
Dr. Gary Miller

http://thetruereligion.org/modules/xfsection/article.php?articleid=403
The remarkable outcome of a dialogue between Muslim scholars and Christian priests

http://thetruereligion.org/modules/xfsection/article.php?articleid=404
Formerly Senior Chaplain at St. Mary's Church (Anglican) in Quetta, Pakistan. Doctorate in Theology (Th.D.)

This is all from one site there is tons more stories like this.

HERESY · Feb 13, 2006

I completely disagree with you here. You have learned people that will NEVER step inside of a pulpit or church because they are not welcomed and they will not conform to a 501 c3 church.

VOTE on muhammed

THE HIDDEN HAND...

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Franchise War Veteran

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