Three Faiths, One God

[2-0-NINE]

My understanding is the Messianic Jews and early followers of Christ wanted to praise Christ as the Messiah. They're doctrine wasn't much different than the Judaism of that time.

The fact that in John 20:28 where Thomas told Jesus he believed he was God is proof that the early Messianic were trinity Belivers. I'm give you a lesson of hebrew, I don't know much. Look up the word echad, meaning One. Ok, It means one through Unity. The Fact that in Psalms, David emphasizes "The Salvation of Yahweh" or "Yahweh's Salvation". Yehoshua, Yeshua, Yahshua, meaning God's salvation was the name in Hebrew for Jesus. I think I'm getting ahead of myself. Read the 20th Chapter of John. Isaiah 9:6. Daniel 3:25. Damn, my mind is so fried. Hope I can edit to make it better.

The Trinity was born after debates over biblical data in the First Council of Nicaea in 325 A.D. (headed by Constantine).

The Terms yes, the idea NO.

If you're trying to make a connection between the Trinity and Messianic Judaism, That's something that came about with the Hebrew-Christian movement in 1800s.

Again read my initial post.

It only applies to modern Messianic Judaism.

No it doesn't, want to know why? These messianics still practice the ceremonies and Jewish Festivals as if they were Reform or Orthodox Jews. Instead they have accepted Jesus as Messiah, Son of God, and God himself.

And the difference between trinity and tri-theism? I can't see much of a difference other than the trinity attempts to be some form of psuedo-monotheism.

Tri-theism is the belief that there are Three Gods. For example, Jesus is a separate God, Aviah or God the Father is a separate God, and the Holy Spirit is a separate God. The trinity doctrines is that they are not separate entities, but three working as One. There's God the father who without the Son and Holy Spirit is not God. There's Jesus who without the Father and Holy spirit is not God. Then the Holy Spirit who cannot be God without Son and Father. Working in Conjunction, yet distinct at the same time.

Just like the Government, it's one but works through the Judicial, Executive and legislative branch. All distinct but 1 Government. They cannot govern by themselves am I right?

Now I use this analogy alot with the Egg. Forgive me father in Heaven in the name of Jesus if I use this analogy to belittle your Deity. Now let's use the egg. There's the Shell, Yoke, and Whites. They are distinct from each other, but let's say the egg is without Yoke, does it constitute a full egg? No, just like God. Without the Father there is no Jesus or Holy Spirit. Without one of the three, there is no God.

Do you get my drift? Don't mean to confuse you bro

 

[FunK-3-FivE]

@The Red Sin
I'll PM you later and we can continue (I have some questions), I'd rather not debate such small petty details here, lets stick to the topic and the big picture (How similar the faiths are yet theres so much conflict over small differences).

I'm not trying to belittle your faith, you yourself seem to understand some of my points in posting this thread. If you disprove me I'll be more than happy to take out the "Trinity" part as I did the Resurrection part with the Christianity segment, really debating petty details was not my intention when I posted this thread.

Same goes to Heresy or anyone else, if you have more corrections or something to debate PM me and I'll be more than glad to make changes if corrected, you know that.

 

[HERESY]

And you've only pointed out one. It's seems you just want to elaborate or clarify on what I stated. Which is more than welcome.

No, in the excerpt I quoted there are several holes which is why I asked several questions. I only used that paragraph because thats all I want to focus on now. Best believe if I want to bring something else to the light that I am more than able to do so.

I'll look more into this later, but for now I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and take out the "resurrection" part because I want to avoid squabbling over such small details and rubbish here.

No, it isn't small detail and rubbish. Regardless of if people agree with your claims or not you have people who are reading them. One person read your claim and spread it around as if it were gospel and now you have more misinformation to sift through, and no I'm not talking about JMACLN.

Now, if it were such small detail and rubbish why include such small details in your original writing?

My understanding is the Messianic Jews and early followers of Christ wanted to praise Christ as the Messiah. They're doctrine wasn't much different than the Judaism of that time.

Their doctrine was significantly different from the practicing majority.

It should be understood that the Messianic Judaism of today started in the 1800s with what we call the Hebrew-Christian movement in London and is different from the original Messianic Jews and followers of Christ. Israel doesn't consider the modern Messianic Jews to be authentic Jews.

First of all, you have no true knowledge of the messianic jews that followed christ. Second of all, explain these differences that you have noted, and finally, when you say "Israel doesn't consider the modern Messianic Jews to be authentic Jews" just what are you saying? Are you saying they don't consider them "jewish" by ancestry? They don't consider them "jewish" because their mothers were not "jewish", or are you saying they don't consider them "jewish" because they don't practice orthodox judaism?

As far as the original Messianic Jews and the Trinity, no they did not believe in the Trinity.

You know nothing about messianic judaism or the early church.

BTW do you believe the writings of Athenagoras, which predate the council of Nicea some 120-150 years, are important to messianic judaism?

The Trinity was born after debates over biblical data in the First Council of Nicaea in 325 A.D. (headed by Constantine),

See above. :dead:

And what about Clement of Alexandria some 200 years before the Council of Nicea? :dead: again.

Do I need to post more? Tertullian :dead: again.

you're trying to make a connection between the Trinity and Messianic Judaism, That's something that came about with the Hebrew-Christian movement in 1800s. It only applies to modern Messianic Judaism.

Listen, you know NOTHING about Judaism or Messianic Judaism. You don't practice either of them, nor do your beliefs resemble them. Early messianic jews believed jesus WAS/IS "god", and this is partially why they were ostracized from the jewish community at time.

And the difference between trinity and tri-theism? I can't see much of a difference other than the trinity attempts to be some form of psuedo-monotheism.

You're sitting here making a mockery of your own intelligence. I can see if I were making a mockery of your intelligence, but to do it yourself is a cop out.

 

[FunK-3-FivE]

Heresy check your PM tomorrow (I don't have time tonight), I made myself clear in my last post. If you want to debate other details feel free to PM me.

 

[HERESY]

You made that post while I was in the middle of making mine so there was no way I could have saw yours in time and not posted. When people say they don't want to talk about something I don't force them and I don't press the issue.

 

[FunK-3-FivE]

No worries mate. Don't get me wrong your contribution (to my article) is welcome, if it's factual, that is. We'll see, I have a lot to do tonight, so tommorow.

 

[HERESY]

EDIT: I think thats a bit overboard.

Are you clear on the fact that I did not see your response when I made mine?

 

[JLMACN]

The fact that in John 20:28 where Thomas told Jesus he believed he was God is proof that the early Messianic were trinity Belivers. I'm give you a lesson of hebrew, I don't know much. Look up the word echad, meaning One. Ok, It means one through Unity. The Fact that in Psalms, David emphasizes "The Salvation of Yahweh" or "Yahweh's Salvation". Yehoshua, Yeshua, Yahshua, meaning God's salvation was the name in Hebrew for Jesus. I think I'm getting ahead of myself. Read the 20th Chapter of John. Isaiah 9:6. Daniel 3:25. Damn, my mind is so fried. Hope I can edit to make it better.
The Terms yes, the idea NO.
Again read my initial post.
No it doesn't, want to know why? These messianics still practice the ceremonies and Jewish Festivals as if they were Reform or Orthodox Jews. Instead they have accepted Jesus as Messiah, Son of God, and God himself.
Tri-theism is the belief that there are Three Gods. For example, Jesus is a separate God, Aviah or God the Father is a separate God, and the Holy Spirit is a separate God. The trinity doctrines is that they are not separate entities, but three working as One. There's God the father who without the Son and Holy Spirit is not God. There's Jesus who without the Father and Holy spirit is not God. Then the Holy Spirit who cannot be God without Son and Father. Working in Conjunction, yet distinct at the same time.

Just like the Government, it's one but works through the Judicial, Executive and legislative branch. All distinct but 1 Government. They cannot govern by themselves am I right?

Now I use this analogy alot with the Egg. Forgive me father in Heaven in the name of Jesus if I use this analogy to belittle your Deity. Now let's use the egg. There's the Shell, Yoke, and Whites. They are distinct from each other, but let's say the egg is without Yoke, does it constitute a full egg? No, just like God. Without the Father there is no Jesus or Holy Spirit. Without one of the three, there is no God.

Do you get my drift? Don't mean to confuse you bro

Cockton....where do you study? and who is your professor? or do you just come up with this on your own?

5000

 

[2-0-NINE]

Cockton....where do you study?

Local Community College, but that's not where I learned this stuff

and who is your professor?

That's irrelevant, well I guess it's not, this is stuff I learned outside of religion class.

or do you just come up with this on your own?

I used to constantly keep in contact with this messianic Jews, asking him questions. He told me how the trinity was real during the early Messianic Church days. He was the one that pointed out John 20:28.

As for the Analogies, my uncle use to give me examples of the trinity. Those made sense to me. I just didn't apply the analogy or the comparison right away. I had to think, then realize those are good analogies. I also remember reading a book written by a messianic Jew. He does a great Job using the Hebrew Letters, which have very significant meanings both numerically and symbolically.

 

[Black Reign]

All 3 are based off the Egyptian Mystery System

 

[2-0-NINE]

LMAO!!!! Oh Yeah? Ask Iknahton why he conformed to Mono-theism, AFTER THE HEBREW EXODUS OUT OF EGYPT? During the time of Moses, or near that time.

 

[JLMACN]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xic8SPOy62I

What is Messianic Judiasim?


5000

 

[FunK-3-FivE]

Their doctrine was significantly different from the practicing majority.

Correction: their doctrine grew to be different from the practicing majority.

More gentiles converted and thus Messianic Judaism grew more distant from Judaism and evolved into Christianity. They weren't ostracized from the Jewish community... it's quite the opposite, the newly converted gentiles sought to distance themselves from the often-persecuted peoples of the time. In doing so, attempting to save themselves from persecution.

First of all, you have no true knowledge of the messianic jews that followed christ.

No "true knowledge"? What exactly is this supposed to mean, Heresy?

Second of all, explain these differences that you have noted, and finally,

The differences? It's completely irrelevant to refer to the modern Messianic Jews (and their doctrine) when the topic is the first Christ followers and original Messianic Jews. Simply put because the latter started 2000 years ago, while the other started less than 200 years ago (not the time of Christ). They are clearly not one and the same.

You know nothing about messianic judaism or the early church.

You're assuming a lot here, how about you, are you a leading authority on the topic? Something I've learned while researching about Messianic Judaism, is there are modern Messianic Jews whom don't believe in the Trinity. The Trinity itself is not a universal doctrine accepted by all Messianic Jews (contrary to what you purported), it's disputed among Messianic Jews. But then again, like I said, modern Messianic Judaism is irrelevant.

BTW do you believe the writings of Athenagoras, which predate the council of Nicea some 120-150 years, are important to messianic judaism?

Athenagoras was a (converted) Christian Apologist from Athens whom sought to defend Christianity by writing to Roman Emperor Marcus Aurelius and Commodos, with a plea for the persecution of Christians to end. In his plea he cited pagan philosophers and the concept of the Trinity, in defense of Christianity. He obviously was citing reasons why Christianity should be accepted amongst the pagan empire. Athenagoras was not Jewish nor a Messianic Jew. Referencing him only further proves my case that the Trinity is European and pagan in origin. Thats not to say he was also born 133 years after the time of Christ.

And what about Clement of Alexandria some 200 years before the Council of Nicea?

Clement of Alexandria was born a pagan and also in Athens. His parents were wealthy pagans who afforded him an education in traditional Greek philosophy. Need I say more? Another reference which further proves the Trinity was European and pagan in origin.

Do I need to post more? Tertullian :dead: again.

Haha, yet another Greek born to pagan parents who could afford to give him an education of traditional Greek philosophy. Not Jewish (and not a Messianic Jew). Further proving my point. The Trinity is European and pagan in origin. I'm quite baffled as to why you referred to Athenagoras, Clement of Alexandria, and Tertullian.

Listen, you know NOTHING about Judaism or Messianic Judaism.

Oh please.

You don't practice either of them, nor do your beliefs resemble them.

Irrelevant, lets move on...

Early messianic jews believed jesus WAS/IS "god", and this is partially why they were ostracized from the jewish community at time.

If this is the case, you've yet to provide evidence or proof.

You're sitting here making a mockery of your own intelligence. I can see if I were making a mockery of your intelligence, but to do it yourself is a cop out.

I don't need to say anything to this. Read above.

BTW just to see if you were indeed right and the Trinity started with Messianic Judaism, I researched and in short the first Trinity writers were all European or at least pagans who later converted to Christianity (none were Jews or Messianic Jews). This is also the time period the bible was revised the most. Don't take my word for it, research and double-check it all for yourself.

 

[2-0-NINE]

I could care less about names. In the christian Circle Oneness and Trinitarians argue all the time. Just like Messianic Judaic Onenesss or Trinitarians it's nothing new man. Funk, let me ask you something, If God was the creator of all things, why couldn't he be a trinity? How could the concept be exclusive to paganism? If you have learned anything about religious history, it's that most of the biblical stories, claims, and implications have been twisted. Examples: Zoroastrianism, Babylonian theology, and Islam.

 

[FunK-3-FivE]

I could care less about names.

You need to understand these names are important, and are the very reason why you believe in the Trinity today. Again I urge you to do your own research into the history of Christianity.

In the christian Circle Oneness and Trinitarians argue all the time. Just like Messianic Judaic Onenesss or Trinitarians it's nothing new man.

Yes.

Funk, let me ask you something, If God was the creator of all things, why couldn't he be a trinity?

This question is off topic. If you wish to ask about my personal beliefs, you can PM me. But it's off topic, were studying the history of religion, and to be objective when dealing with history is key.

How could the concept be exclusive to paganism?

Because this is where it originated.

If you have learned anything about religious history, it's that most of the biblical stories, claims, and implications have been twisted. Examples: Zoroastrianism, Babylonian theology, and Islam.

Now you're beginning to understand things. You could add much more to your list of examples.

 

[HERESY]

First you tell people to hit you on PM now you come back with this?

Correction: their doctrine grew to be different from the practicing majority.

No, their doctrine was different from the practicing majority and was different as soon as they accepted him as messiah. This is the major rift between the two, and the belief that he was messiah did not come 300 years after the fact--HIS FOLLOWERS THAT WERE WITH HIM BELIEVED HE WAS THE MESSIAH. Did they still observe customs and rites found in Judaism? Yes, but even then there are some differences.

More gentiles converted and thus Messianic Judaism grew more distant from Judaism and evolved into Christianity. They weren't ostracized from the Jewish community... it's quite the opposite, the newly converted gentiles sought to distance themselves from the often-persecuted peoples of the time. In doing so, attempting to save themselves from persecution.

Incorrect, they were ostracized from the jewish community as soon as the numbers grew, and as soon as the ruling majority saw people were no longer worshiping pagan gods. Now, if they weren't ostracized, I need you to explain who PAUL was killing and WHY he was doing it. After you find some nifty explanation go into the destruction of the temple in 70 a.d. and how it would eventually lead to a revolt/war in 135 A.D. Who were those persecuted?

But thats just stuff I remember off the top of my dome. This link MURDERS your claim :dead:

http://www.rbc.org/bible_study/answers_to_tough_questions/answers/47969.aspx

No "true knowledge"? What exactly is this supposed to mean, Heresy?

You have no true knowledge of the things you are speaking on. How many different ways to I have to type it so you can understand it? Let me explain something to you, I am a FOLLOWER OF THE WAY. The closest thing today to our beliefs IS "messianic judaism", and I have stated that MANY times on this site. I am more "jewish" in what I observe than damn near anyone here on this site, and I'm BLACK. When I was a teen and I began my own search this is what I was lead to, and I haven't looked back sense. I have over 10 years following this path and LIVING IT. You have less than ten days researching it. No, you have no true knowledge...

The differences? It's completely irrelevant to refer to the modern Messianic Jews (and their doctrine) when the topic is the first Christ followers and original Messianic Jews. Simply put because the latter started 2000 years ago, while the other started less than 200 years ago (not the time of Christ). They are clearly not one and the same.

You are obviously not comprehending the question, and if such things are irreleveant why bring them up? You were the one who referred to modern messianic jews and YOU introduced them when you said, "It should be understood that the Messianic Judaism of today started in the 1800s with what we call the Hebrew-Christian movement in London and is different from the original Messianic Jews and followers of Christ."

I'm asking you to EXPLAIN HOW THEY ARE DIFFERENT, and since you are the one making the claim the burden of proof is on you. If you're saying they are different just because one started less than 200 years ago while the other started over 2000 years ago you need help. If you cannot explain any differences of doctrine or even cite such differences you have no leg to stand on.

You're assuming a lot here, how about you, are you a leading authority on the topic?

A more of a leading authority than you since I've been living this way for years, observe jewish customs, took it upon myself to stufy the original texts (yes the ones written in archaic languages) and have answered multiple questions about messianic judaism on and offline. I believe if we take a poll the general consensus will be that I am more of an authority in this area than you are. :dead:

Now, tell me why we should view you as an authority or someone we should listen to?

Something I've learned while researching about Messianic Judaism, is there are modern Messianic Jews whom don't believe in the Trinity.The Trinity itself is not a universal doctrine accepted by all Messianic Jews (contrary to what you purported), it's disputed among Messianic Jews. But then again, like I said, modern Messianic Judaism is irrelevant.

WOW! Here are a dozen hamantashen cookies for you. Now let me blow your argument to hell and back for the 900th time. You are saying there are modern day messianic jews that don't believe in the trinity. There are modern day "CHRISTIANS" (pentecostals) who don't believe in the trinity--SO WHAT? No one is saying or implying that it is a universal doctrine accepted by all MODERN DAY messianic jews.

The following quote is directly from YOU:

As far as the original Messianic Jews and the Trinity, no they did not believe in the Trinity.

Do you see how you've misconstrued what I've said? Do you see how you've blatently spun this into something else?

Where is your proof that original messianic jews did not believe in the trinity? You made the claim you need to back it up.

Now I'm going to blow another hole in your position, and show once again why you need to refrain from speaking on things you know nothing about (save for a couple of wikipedia links and google.)

Athenagoras was a (converted) Christian Apologist from Athens whom sought to defend Christianity by writing to Roman Emperor Marcus Aurelius and Commodos, with a plea for the persecution of Christians to end. In his plea he cited pagan philosophers and the concept of the Trinity, in defense of Christianity.

Now you're attacking the messenger? Hit this link because you know NOTHING about the man and what he wrote. If I were a betting man I'd say you didn't know anything about him until I mentioned his name.

http://www.stathanasius.miss.on.cop...ology/SchoolOfAlexandria/DeansAthenagoras.htm

After you hit this link I have VERY specific questions I'd like to ask you about his writings, ad if you don't mind I'd like you to go off your own knowledge.

Clement of Alexandria was born a pagan and also in Athens. His parents were wealthy pagans who afforded him an education in traditional Greek philosophy. Need I say more? Another reference which further proves the Trinity was European and pagan in origin.

Listen, you are once again attacking the messenger without understanding the messenger or the person. What you're doing is using a fallacy to poison the well. Need you explain more? Yes you do, how are your claims proof that the trinity was european and pagan in origin? You don't even understand the difference between tritheism and the trinity doctrine, and the fact that you believe we should throw out what people say because of what they used to believe is pure comedy. Now explain to the board which specific pagan influences Clement included in his studies, and explain their context as it relates to the trinity doctrine.

Haha, yet another Greek born to pagan parents who could afford to give him an education of traditional Greek philosophy. Not Jewish (and not a Messianic Jew). Further proving my point. The Trinity is European and pagan in origin. I'm quite baffled as to why you referred to Athenagoras, The Clement of Alexandria, and Tertullian

SEE ABOVE.

Now I'll show you why you need to stop speaking on things you know nothing about and how you don't have the ability to stay on topic. Pay attention and READ S-L-O-W-Y.

You said:

The Trinity was born after debates over biblical data in the First Council of Nicaea in 325 A.D. (headed by Constantine),

DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT THE REASON WHY I GAVE YOU THOSE NAMES IS BECAUSE IT PROVES YOUR CLAIM THAT THE TRINITY CAME OUT IN 325 A.D. IS HISTORICALLY INACCURATE AND NOT TRUE? :dead:

I did not list those men in response to the trinity NOT being pagan. I listed those men because their beliefs and use of the word trinity PREDATE the council of nicaea. :dead: x 325.

Oh please.

I've proven it several times now.

Irrelevant, lets move on...

Highly relevant. I know about this because I *LIVE IT*. You know misinformation and hogwash because you are trying to DISCREDIT IT.

If this is the case, you've yet to provide evidence or proof.

Proof has been cited (refer to the link). If you don't know who Jewish/Judeo-Christians are or what happened to them I don't know what to tell you.

I don't need to say anything to this. Read above.

BTW just to see if you were indeed right and the Trinity started with Messianic Judaism, I researched and in short the first Trinity writers were all European or at least pagans who later converted to Christianity (none were Jews or Messianic Jews). This is also the time period the bible was revised the most. Don't take my word for it, research and double-check it all for yourself.

First of all, why would I take your word on anything? Second of all, it is clear as day that you don't understand what you're typing. You made the claim that the trinity started in 325 a.d. I gave names and years that PREDATE what you presented. Finally, when did I ever state or imply the trinity STARTED with messianic judaism? :dead:

How can I explain how these concepts were found in the O.T. and actually originate from there if you don't even understand the basics? :ermm:

PS hit the link that JLMACN PROVIDED.

 

[2-0-NINE]

@Funk, there's no if, ands, or buts. There is no need for you to pick anymore straws my friend. :dead: