The Immigration Laws

[MEXCOM]

@Mexcom I'll address you right now while i have some time.



Ceaser Chavez, a leading advocate for immigrant rights, was outpoken about illegal immigrants. He saw the problems it would cause and wanted to curb it.

I understand and agree with this. I know illegal immigration will not always help the economy. It can't. Everything has a threshold. Do I think we've reached it? No. Do I think we will? Yes.

The fact that they are EXPLOITED should be one of the main reasons why they shouldn't come here.

Not true. The American government is a cause for the reason they come to the United States. The Mexican government is billions of times more corrupt than the one we live in. Accoring to the World Bank 53% of those in Mexico live on less than $2 a day and 24% live on less than 1 dollar a day. The lower 40% of Mexican households share less than 11% of the total wealth in that country.

We're talking about a country where there is no middle class. You have your incredibly poor and your incredibly rich. There are very, very few to no welfare programs in Mexico. America has caused these problems and American conglomorism has taken advantage of this by relocationg to Mexico and perpetuating the cycle until of course it became cheaper to abuse the Asian workforce and off to Asia they went.

I don't believe in reform. I don't believe it's possible. Maybe if I did I'd be a bit more optimistic. I don't know though, to be honest, I think Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador could potentially cause some reform, that is if he isn't assassinated in the first month of his precedency. If he wins that is.

No. Tangibles such as metals. Money = worthless.

I've thought of doing this later in life, once things are more economically stable for me. Platinum and gold? Or other metals?

And this will continue to happen until:

A. Latin americans/mexicans take over ALL of america (including the government.)

OR

B. Latin americans and mexicans take control of mexicos economy (regime change, protests, etc.)

Agreed.

The american economy doesn't support anyone? Who told you this? Sure, the american economy supports many people. If the economy was flatline you would have no social programs, no government aid, housing etc. Surely people who invest in the stock market depend on the american economy and the trading of products to support themselves. So yes, the american economy does support some, but it doesn't do a good job of supporting the 40%, and this is where part of the problem lies. How can it support ANYONE when 40% of americans are considered "broke", and this country is allowing 3 million ILLEGAL broke people to enter the country?

When I said support in this part I meant actively caring for it's citizenry.

I still do not believe that the American economy does any of this because it doesn't need to. The American government does not the economy. The economy runs on profit. It does not care about social responsibility unless it garners it more profits.

Many of the people who run the economy are in seats of political power. These people are the ones to are supporting immigration. Immigration is even more rampant with Bush as president. I don't know if it'll stop soon but I do feel that terrorism is somehow going to be linked to the borders.

Also, I do NOT place the blame solely on america. In the case with mexico/mexicans you have a very corrupt government (so it seems) a large work force, goods, etc. However, the PEOPLE are NOT doing what they need to be doing. The SAME way they are protesting HERE 500k to 1 million deep is the SAME way they need to protest in mexico (and other places of poverty.)

In order for a huge protest of that kind a small protest of any kind must first be successful. Much like the Tlatelolco massacre. Or the killingss of indigenious Indians. Or of political dissidents or revolutionaries.

Mexican's have ALWAYS fought for social reform. It's just always been out of our reach with the US backing the Mexican government. But things are changing. Slowly but surely you will be seeing the same types of protests in Mexico that are common in other "Latin" American countries.

Again, this outsourcing would be considered exploitation, and this is another problem with capitalism. We have capable workers HERE that WILL do those jobs, but instead they get outsourced to places like india, china, pakistan etc because they people are NOT objecting to the exploitation. Why? Because they are making more money than their country would pay them, and this is part of the problem.

And this again goes back to my "The economy doesn't support anyone" bit. This is the economy. The almighty dollar. Governments cant work without an economy and those governments with a weak economy will ALWAYS welcome the precense of the United States and the American dollar.

 

[tuff luv]

 

[HERESY]

I understand and agree with this. I know illegal immigration will not always help the economy. It can't. Everything has a threshold. Do I think we've reached it? No. Do I think we will? Yes.

So, if you know the threshold will be reached why do you advocate it? It is not as if experts are saying the problem will happen 100 years from now, because studies show the numbers will have GREATLY multiplied by 2010.

Not true. The American government is a cause for the reason they come to the United States. The Mexican government is billions of times more corrupt than the one we live in.

Not true? The american government is a cause for the reason they come to the united states? Why are they NOT planning on taking MEXICO back from the corrupt mexican government? You speak as if these people seek amnesty, and this is NOT the case.

Accoring to the World Bank 53% of those in Mexico live on less than $2 a day and 24% live on less than 1 dollar a day. The lower 40% of Mexican households share less than 11% of the total wealth in that country.

And these people are entering this country. What do you think will happen to the citizens here?

We're talking about a country where there is no middle class.

And what do you think will happen here? The gap between rich and poor in america is being stretched every second of the day. If more poor people enter this country and work for less, the big guys (corporations) are going to make a killing and seal the deal on the so called middle class.

You have your incredibly poor and your incredibly rich. There are very, very few to no welfare programs in Mexico.

Whos fault is that? BLAME THE MEXICAN GOVERNMENT AND THE CITIZENS!!!! YOU WOULD HAVE WELFARE PROGRAMS IN MEXICO IF YOU CHANGED THE GOVERNMENT, MADE ATTEMPTS TO BOOST THE ECONOMY ETC ETC ETC!

America has caused these problems and American conglomorism has taken advantage of this by relocationg to Mexico and perpetuating the cycle until of course it became cheaper to abuse the Asian workforce and off to Asia they went.

Why are you blaming america for this? Don't blame america. You need to place blame on the government of mexico and the citizens of mexico. Mexico makes money like other countries and they have goods/services to offer. If the citizens would speak up and demand that the wealth be spread you wouldn't have these problems. Instead, what do they do? They protest here. Why are the citizens/workers of Asia and mexico abused? BECAUSE THE RESIDING/CONTROLLING GOVERNMENT ALLOWS IT.

I don't believe in reform. I don't believe it's possible. Maybe if I did I'd be a bit more optimistic. I don't know though, to be honest, I think Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador could potentially cause some reform, that is if he isn't assassinated in the first month of his precedency. If he wins that is.

So basically you believe in passing the buck.........

I've thought of doing this later in life, once things are more economically stable for me. Platinum and gold? Or other metals?

Gold and silver (if you can afford platinum thats good also.) Purchase in 10 ounce bullion if you have the cash. If not purchase in one ounce (ten ounce = more bang for the buck.) For further details send me and I will give you the link to where I purchase. Some places/dealers/sellers will charge you a "storage fee" in case you don't feel "safe."

When I said support in this part I meant actively caring for it's citizenry.

I still do not believe that the American economy does any of this because it doesn't need to. The American government does not the economy. The economy runs on profit. It does not care about social responsibility unless it garners it more profits.

Of the course the motive is NOT the well being of the average man/citizen. The reason the government does this IS because of profit, and I have already said capitalism IS the problem.

Many of the people who run the economy are in seats of political power. These people are the ones to are supporting immigration. Immigration is even more rampant with Bush as president. I don't know if it'll stop soon but I do feel that terrorism is somehow going to be linked to the borders.

Shit, ALL of the people who run the economy are in seats of political power (or they work behind the scenes.) However, if american citizens understood how the economy works, how money operates etc you would have WAR between the citizens and those in power, and I don't mean a price war. The PEOPLE should control the economy, however, due to greed international bankers and private entities own this country....LITERALLY...

And yes, when the next "terrorist" attack happens it will most likely be blamed on the border issue.

In order for a huge protest of that kind a small protest of any kind must first be successful. Much like the Tlatelolco massacre. Or the killingss of indigenious Indians. Or of political dissidents or revolutionaries.

Mexican's have ALWAYS fought for social reform. It's just always been out of our reach with the US backing the Mexican government. But things are changing. Slowly but surely you will be seeing the same types of protests in Mexico that are common in other "Latin" American countries.

Look, this is a VERY simple concept. Clean your house FIRST. Protesting here is like putting a band aid on someone who has multiple .50 bullet holes in his grill. Yes it will stop the bleeding for how long? 2 seconds? The fact is change will NOT happen unless the mexican government receieves the same (if not more) protest. If the mexican government (or ANY government where illegals come from) are not held responsible it will solve nothing. These governments are HAPPY that the dregs of society are carted off, and you know whats interesting? Think about early american history and why the colonizers where here in the first place.

And this again goes back to my "The economy doesn't support anyone" bit. This is the economy. The almighty dollar. Governments cant work without an economy and those governments with a weak economy will ALWAYS welcome the precense of the United States and the American dollar.

So blame america? Don't hate the player. Hate the game........

 

[miggidy]

Bro, this is not fear at work. This is logic, common sense and looking at the present facts. The fact is this economy is in shambles. The fact is this economy will become worse if it has to take on 3 million ILLEGAL people each year. Fear would be someone saying to get rid of all the immigrants (including the illegal ones.) Fear would be failing to answer questions or failure to provide some type of method for solving the problem. I am against 3 million ILLEGAL immigrants each year. I am NOT against 3 million LEGAL immigrants who have gone through the system of becoming a citizen and contribute.

I guess welfare, social aid programs; section 8 housing, GA, wic, and food stamps programs just MAGICALLY appear out of thin air. Oh, I get it! IT'S MANNA FROM THE GOOD LORD!

If it has always done nothing that would imply free lunch programs, general assistance, section 8 housing, food stamps, medi-care (including free prenatal care, dental AND medicine), public schooling, pell grants, vouchers, food-stamps and homeless shelters ARE FIGMENTS OF OUR IMAGINATION AND NEVER REALLY EXISTED!

Fact is most illegals ARE at the low class level, and this is something no one will dispute. You probably do not see how this is any different because you effectively ignore population growth, INCREASE of poverty AND the outsourcing of employment.

According to the Santa Cruz Sentinel, ..........

Were the majority of these people illegals? You bet they were!

According to the Migration News, .........

According to the San Francisco Chronicle, ..........

According to State Department of Health Services ..........

According to the San Francisco Examiner May 14, 1997 and S.F. Chronicle ..........

According to The Criminal Alien..........

As you can see the illegals are costing the state (and country) money. If you have something contrary to these numbers by all means post them!

They are poor for a reason and are not costing us anything? Mig, please explain the numbers and dollar amounts I just posted up. Thanks.

You could care less about 15% that goes back to the community? Where is your proof that the majority of your tax dollars go to politicians and armed forces and only 15% goes to the communities? Let us say these numbers were factual and this war prolonged for another 10 years. How do you expect for the country to FUND the war AND take care of the citizens?

You talk about common sense, here’s one for you.
You say that 3 million illegal immigrants enter this nation every year, yet the last amnesty was 20 years ago. The problem with this “estimate” is that another estimate these ANAL-ysts spit out says that there are about 11 to 12 million illegals currently in the US. This isn’t rocket science Heresy, it just takes a calculator if you can’t do the math in your head. These lying sons of bitches should at least make their lies compatible with each other. See what I mean? Something is driving you to take these numbers as fact yet a little common sense tells you that they are incorrect.
If you are to believe that there are 12 million illegal aliens living in the US then this means that an average of 600,000 illegals enter the US each year since 1986.
And that is way off from the 3 million they’re paranoid about!

You fear that illegal immigration will have a negative impact on our economy?
That and over population.
Ok, valid fears if you ask me.

First off, the money that goes back to the community has always been budgeted like everything else. Sam just takes a piece of the pie, but instead of keeping it for himself he gives the piece to the people while he keeps the rest of the pie.
What does this mean to me?
It means that my tax money that goes back to the public system has already been cut to the side and no matter what I do, some poor person’s gonna get it.
Which is fine with me because I’m all for helping the needy, I’m not here to pass judgment and decide whether these individuals deserve it or not.
I have enough money in my pockets to keep me going, in other words I can spare a dollar or two for the homeless guy outside of the grocery store!
I don’t miss the money since it’s only a couple of dollars, I can care less what a poor bastard does with it. I understand that it’s my greed and ego that keeps me from not sparing a few dollars. It doesn’t even make sense when you think about it, “Oh I won’t give him a dollar because he’s this or he’s that!”. It doesn’t make sense because sparing a dollar isn’t going to set you back much! That there is called greed….
My concern and every citizen’s concern needs to be with the rest of the tax money.
You know, the billions of dollars that go to waste and actually affect our economy….
You cats let politicians blind you with illegal immigrants, the prison system, and public welfare. You do not see that this is just a smoke screen for the rest of the money they pocket. How much goes to our military so that we can spread Sam’s capitalistic agenda?
Billions billions billions.
IF ANYONE CARES TO WAKE UP, PLEASE FOLLOW THIS LINK:
http://www.warresisters.org/piechart.htm

I am not buying into the “theory” that illegal aliens are killing the economy.
Let me see, illegal aliens often seek medical assistance like everyone else requires.
Hmmm…. That’s true.
Some say that they partake in this nation’s welfare system.
First off, most ER’s won’t even take you without medical insurance now days.
And those illegals that are attended via ER’s and doctor offices pay their bills just like everyone else does. It goes to show the level of distortion found in these so-called statistics these research agencies come up with.
And as far as I personally know, seeking welfare help is very risky business for an illegal.
Every illegal immigrant I know is paranoid about his secret, the last thing they’ll want to do is jeopardize their journey. These are hard working people who had the courage to make the long journey here.
The average anti illegal immigrant is puzzled as to why Sam won’t close the border with a 50’ tall fence and armed guards. Yet the obvious reason for this is because Sam knows he needs illegal aliens to exploit. He knows that this is a very profitable industry.
If you disagree then explain to me how I’m wrong. This has been going on since the beginning, long before Islamic terrorism so that excuse does not qualify.
Why do you think Sam is fighting a phony war against drugs?
Sam depends on the dollars it profits from it each year. It’s free money for him, he’d be stupid if he was to shut down drug trafficking altogether.
Why people aren’t able to grasp this is beyond me, so you’ll never understand why Sam does the same with illegal immigration….

Here’s a more diplomatic article in contrast to what you’ve been hearing from Bill O’Reily, Sean Hannity, and Luo Dobbs:
http://www.fortwayne.com/mld/newssentinel/living/14307978.htm

Moreover, you don't think the attack will be placed on the border problem? It would be EASIER to place the blame on the border problem than to let the public know "The Russians detonated a suitcase nuke." or "Mossad just blew up a bridge." Which is the PUBLIC more likely to accept? An attack coming in from the Mexican border which has hundreds of thousands ILLEGAL people coming in each MONTH or some alternative reality like Mossad or Russia?

The attack has already been placed on this border “issue”.

Where are these places and why are they 3rd world countries? Could the reason for LACK of homelessness be attributed to the fact that these 3rd world countries have not been industrialized?

From personal experience, Hong Kong (not really a nation I know), Singapore, and Malaysia. The reason is that they actually care about the homeless. Whether it’s from the heart or for personal gain. Here in the states we’re too greedy to do it for either reason.
Here’s how selfish we are, we make laws to outlaw panhandling….

If they CAN sustain themselves, WHY are they even coming HERE? Please refer to the other thread for more info.

Do they find a way by sneaking into a country illegally?

So why come here? If they have enough to survive on in their own country why come here at all? If they do not have enough to survive on in their country, they need to FORCE their government’s hand. If they have enough to survive on here with or without our help that means they should be DENIED medical and other services (that are offered to everyone.)

This has already been addressed several times.
They come here because they seek a better life.

What can a coup bring in a life time that’s better than just coming up here?
BTW, the lowest class in Mexico has tried to do something about its treatment.
Too bad most Mexicans have stupid pride in their country, to the point that they don’t see a movement like that of the “Zapatistas” as a positive.
People are starting to pressure the government but I just don’t know how Mexico can build on oil industrialization (one of the very few natural resources they have the Spanish stole all the gold and brought it to Spain).
Coincidentally their so-called ally neighbor Sam rather buy oil from greedy Middle Eastern royal families who don’t share their wealth, instead of buying oil from a government who will give back to its people.

This is a very good link. You want to know why this link is so good? In actually ENDORSES what I am saying and DESTROYS your very position, Mig. Here are excerpts from YOUR source:

They are willing to work for lower wages than legal workers, helping to keep down prices. But illegal immigrants also can depress wages for unskilled, legal workers and strain local hospitals and schools.

Strike 1.

Strike 2.

Strike 3. See ya, Mig!

My position is based on logic, facts, findings, and the TRUTH. If I had a position of fear I would say do away with ALL immigrants and DENY illegals, but this is NOT my position. I am saying to make the illegals GO THROUGH THE PROCESS AND BECOME CONTRIBUTING CITIZENS!!

How do you know this Heresy?
You question everything else man gives you but you take this for fact?
Where is your consistency?
Something’s making you believe this bull$hit, I said it was fear and you deny it.
So I will call it concern from now on.
Anyways, here’s an article you should read just so you get an idea how different opinions are between analysts, experts, and research agencies.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5312900
What does this tell you, somebody’s seriously lying here.

You were so confident that I struck out yet you struck out from the get go without even swinging. This goes to show how easily the public can be mislead….
I know you’re smarter than this bro….
How can you accept illegal immigrants as an excuse for lower wages when Congress decides what the national minimum wage is????
Now do you see what I’m talking about here?
See how fucking far people go to blame the next man for their problems?
Illegal immigrants in no way affect our national wages but yet ignorance mixed with fear creates racism and it is racism that points the blame finger on illegal immigrants.
You as a member of a minority group should know from first hand experience that shit always rolls down hill….

I am not agitated nor do I have feelings of anxiety caused by any of this. Please limit your use of "fear" to its proper context. You do NOT deny the existence of the radical groups. Not only that but you FAIL to mention their influences.

Who is most of us? The 500k to 1 million K protesters who recently protested? LOL! These people have influence, and when you stop living in denial, you will see the bigger picture.

Of course there are radical groups with in the Latino community (I won’t even get into the fact that your terminology of radicals is subjective).
Like I said, this isn’t exclusive to the Latin American community in the US.

The hundreds of thousands you speak of are part of “us”.
How would you react if someone burned a symbol of your heritage pride right before your eyes? How do you think the average black cat would react?
Earlier today that’s exactly what a bunch of racists white kittens did in front of these protesters. If any of these protesters were of the radical kind that you are “concerned” about, then you know fights would break out. Yet there was no violence reported.
These are human rights protests, that’s what the white color they’re wearing symbolizes in the first place. Peace….

What is the source of the problem? I need to know your take on this before I can address the former president. BTW, what is Mexico’s economy like now? Is it stronger now that he is out of office or is it worse?

What’s “perceived” as the problem.
Let me make this clear, I do not in any way see Latin American illegal/legal immigration as a problem. These are a people returning to a land they were once booted from.
THE problem is the thieves who pretend this land was given to them and act like these people never lived here.

The peso is still below what it was before Salinas fucked it all up so the economy is still bad.

Ok, I get it. Take the easy way out! Don't fight for a better system that your grandchildren and great children can appreciate 25 to 50 years from now! Run away from the problem! Be a coward! Don't stand up for yourself! No one is saying these people should starve or that they don't deserve a proper living, but who is going to make the sacrifice?

No one is claiming america is the only country with an illegal immigration problem. This is a point no one has implied. However, how many countries have an immigration problem to a similar or GREATER extent than america? The wealthy outnumber the poor because of situations like this. Less wages, shitloads of workers, outsourcing etc. The problem WILL get worse as long as this country continues to grow with illegals that are at or below the poverty line.

I see this in a total different way.
The people coming here are not cowards, they’re just people returning to their land because they have no power over their current land.
Not everyone is coming here, most of the poor stay in Mexico.
The problem is that the poor have very little say in Mexican politics.
The upper and middle classes in Mexico are happy the way they are and they don’t care about the poor (which is the case here as well).
If Canada’s currency was as high to the dollar as the dollar is compared to the peso, our poor would be migrating up there.

What makes you so sure the illegal immigration “problem” in the US is the worse?

Mig, how does that link support your position? Seriously, you are making my job easier because every source you have cited I have used against you (or plan on using it against you.) here lets take an excerpt from that site:

Mexico is the primary source country of both legal and illegal immigrants. Mexico accounted for about 30 percent of the foreign-born in 2000, and more than half of Mexicans residing in the United States in 2000 were illegal aliens

If 1/3 to half of the illegal immigrants are visa overstays do you know what that means? That means 2/3 to half can be attributed to illegals simply crossing the borders (NON-WORK RELATED/ NON-VISA OVERSTAY.)

Mig, I did not ask you to list that site. You did it on your own. The Canadian border MIGHT be a larger border, but the fact is the fact is the majority of Illegal immigrants ARE coming in through Mexico. Did you READ the charts? Compare CANADA and MEXICO and see which one is a bigger problem. Any, person with the ability to properly read and understand the charts will tell you Mexico’s border is a larger problem.

Most illegal immigrants are of latin/spanish background. Where are most illegals coming in from? Common sense does not tell ANYONE that most illegals don't come from the southern border. Common sense tells me to look at the numbers, stats and FACTS and guess what? These numbers support the claim (thus proving true) that the majority of illegals DO come from the border. It is a fact that the majority of illegals are from a certain racial background. If they are NOT coming in from the southern border, where are they coming from? Are you implying more illegals come in through seaports?

The obvious reason is that it is an obviously larger problem.

I posted it to show you how the “opinion” varies from researcher to researcher.
If the CIS admits that the overstay numbers are some where between a third to half of all illegal immigrants, then what are the percentages of illegals coming from the Mexican border, the Canadian border, and sea ports respectively?
Even by taking the lowest denominator of 1/3 of illegals are visa overstays,
how do you know the majority of illegals enter through the Southern border?
There’s no indication from the initial numbers that the majority of all illegals come from the Mexican border. What they said is that Mexico is the primary country of which most illegals come from. This however doesn’t mean that most illegals are entering through the Mexican border.

No such thing as 19 hi-jackers. How you buy into that is beyond me.

You lost me here. Are you trying to say that the 911 hi-jackers weren’t visa overstays?

1. The nation of islam is a religious based group. The nation of islam does NOT advocate taking over america and setting up a "black state." The nation of islam advocates black ownership, black economics etc.

2. 2-0-6 posted a VERY insightful thread regarding the Black Panthers. The panthers were NOT trying to establish an all black state (how could they when they had non-black members) and were COMMUNITY CENTERED/BASED.

3. The KKK and Aryan Brotherhood DO advocate taking over the government (in some instances.) However, these groups do NOT have the manpower or influence to pull something like this off. In fact NONE of the groups you mentioned do.

So, before you attribute my position to fear LEARN/RESEARCH the groups you have listed. :dead:


1. You don't have UNITY amongst the white race like you do the Latin race.

2. You do not have the AGENDA that is PROPERLY mapped out and IMPLEMENTED like the AZTLAN movement.

3. These groups do not have the FUNDING for it.

4. It is estimated that whites will be the minority by 2010 (four years from now.) What is too stop mexicans/latinoes from NOT accepting or promoting a nationwide brown pride movement catering to latinos? NOTHING!!! Why? Because they have the NUMBERS, the have the FINANCING, and they are entrenched in the ECONOMY.

My bad on grouping the Black Panthers in the list. I thought about after posting it but decided I'd rather adress it if you brought it up.
Anyways, they were a socialist movement.

But the Nation of Islam calls for the extermination of the white race.
This goes beyond controlling a nation, they’re on a global scale.

White Supremacists share the same views.
Whether they have the means is subjective.

And, they did the same to afrikans, only they shipped them thousands of miles away from home to work the fields they kicked the natives from. Talk about exploitation and capitalism. So the continent was populated....you have two choices. You can wait for them to give the land back or you can fight for it. Which one seems to be a reality?

To YOU my previous response implied that. This response has FAILED to answer my question. If the people LOST the land via war the ONLY way you can reclaim the land is if they GIVE you back the land (like Israel is currently doing) OR the people try to take the land back by FORCE/NUMBERS. This is not FEAR and this is not PARANOIA. This is FACT that is backed by HISTORY. If you LOST the land, sign a shitload of contracts saying you lost it etc do you know what that means? It means the land is no longer yours.

You forgot that there is a third option.
You don’t have to wait to see if they give the land back, and you don’t have to shed a drop of blood in conflict.

You can regain control of what was once yours in a peaceful democratic manner.

Simply going to see a shift in ethnic numbers? LMAO! You will see a shift in AGENDA. You will see a shift in RIGHTS. You will see a shift in goods & services offered. You will see a shift in LAWS. When one group becomes larger, the smaller group is usually oppressed or forced out (if they are not assimilated.)

My POSITION/VIEW/ASSESSMENT does NOT have me thinking anyone is going to take over this country. What I am saying is the population IS growing, the latin/mexican influence IS rising, and the latins/mexicans will be the majority in this nation. These obvious truths DO pave the way for a MASS MOVEMENT. Whether they can pull it off or not is not the question. The question is WILL they TRY to do it. Can they galvanize the support. the answer is a simple yes and the 500k to 1 million protestors PROVE this.

They can't do anything about it unless they start putting us in concentration camps? Ok, now it seems like you are catching on. Given the current circumstances is it too far-fetched to ponder the possible scenario:

Population boom in america, civil strife amongst the population and the government cause a tear between the country. As, the country is trying to solve the problem, curb the violence, ease the tensions etc the country is hit with MASSIVE nuke attacks.

Is this scenario far fetched?

You will see more compassion towards immigrants because we know where they’re coming from. So this is a definite….
But don’t jump too far ahead of yourself bro.
I understand your concern but you are forgetting that Latinos come in every color.
We can’t discriminate against white because many of us are white and we can’t discriminate against blacks because many of us are black.

As for Hindus, Arabs, and Asians.
Don’t trip Apu, just wear deodorant and we’ll be coo.
Don’t worry Ahmed, just keep the liquor stores open past midnight and we’ll be aight.
And don’t worry Asians, just keep the Asian women sexy and Chinese food tasty!

*I hope no one takes any of that to the heart. Blame Carlos Mencia and not my lame ass attempt at comedy*

It most likely won't be a beefed up national guard. It will be a beefed up national guard that has a shitload of crazy, trigger happy, patriotic white men helping out. Want to know why the Syrian/Iraqi border is a problem? Because of WARFARE. Weapons are involved. How many illegal immigrants are busting back with straps and using bombs? You are comparing APPLES to ORANGES.

So you mean that we don’t have control over the Syrian border?

There’s always going to be loop holes.
They will put a dent on illegal immigration no doubt, but the concern is Al Aqaeda isn’t it? At least that was the excuse they were throwing out.
What I’m saying is that there will never be any homeland security….
Most of us have enough common sense to realize that a terrorist attack is just a matter of time….

You want to stand up for latinos/mexicans? Protest the mexican government!

Agreed,
that and every other puppet government in Latin America.

 

[MEXCOM]

So, if you know the threshold will be reached why do you advocate it? It is not as if experts are saying the problem will happen 100 years from now, because studies show the numbers will have GREATLY multiplied by 2010.

Advocate what? Illegal immigration? I don't advocate the immigration. I advocate the actual aliens, past and present, and their boon to American society.

Not true? The american government is a cause for the reason they come to the united states? Why are they NOT planning on taking MEXICO back from the corrupt mexican government? You speak as if these people seek amnesty, and this is NOT the case.

Like I said before: The AMERICAN government is the reason that these people leave Mexico. Mexicans who are here, and trust me I know, would NOT WANT to be here.

Look at NAFTA. It's agricultural subsidies and lowering of tariff's fucked up the Mexican agricultural economy. Forcing farmers to move into the big cities where jobs did not await them. Some "good" can be argued that came from it but in the end it cause an influx of immigration from Mexico and into the United States.

And you speak as if none are. Who says there are no revolutionary groups on Mexico? There are. Both armed and those who are more of a political nature. I mean even the CIA was (is?) helping the Mexican government keep a close eye on the EZLN.

And where did I imply that any one sought anything?

And these people are entering this country. What do you think will happen to the citizens here?

Same that's happened thus far. Relatively very little. We can make speculation but that's all it is. Speculation.

And what do you think will happen here? The gap between rich and poor in america is being stretched every second of the day. If more poor people enter this country and work for less, the big guys (corporations) are going to make a killing and seal the deal on the so called middle class.

I know. And they'll blame it on and solely on illegal Mexicans.

Whos fault is that? BLAME THE MEXICAN GOVERNMENT AND THE CITIZENS!!!! YOU WOULD HAVE WELFARE PROGRAMS IN MEXICO IF YOU CHANGED THE GOVERNMENT, MADE ATTEMPTS TO BOOST THE ECONOMY ETC ETC ETC!

1. I DO blame the Mexican government.
2. What do you call Mexico's involvement in free trading agreements if not an attempt at boosting the economy
3. You can't speak out against any political party in Mexico. I know from personal experience that they run the country. They go to people's houses and threathen them and their family if they vote but tell them if they are to vote who to vote for. They blacklist you and often murder you if you speak out against them. Freedom of speech in Mexico is a joke and an unarmed and ignorant populous has no chance against American trained anti-insurgents.
4. You speak as if it were easy to change anything in Mexico. How would you change ANYTHING without getting murdered by PRI HERESY? And when you find a solution, which you won't either because you can't or because you will not, pass that information on to every other developing and underdeveloped country in the world that is a puppet state for the United States and is ruled by a hegemonic political party.

Why are you blaming america for this? Don't blame america. You need to place blame on the government of mexico and the citizens of mexico. Mexico makes money like other countries and they have goods/services to offer. If the citizens would speak up and demand that the wealth be spread you wouldn't have these problems. Instead, what do they do? They protest here. Why are the citizens/workers of Asia and mexico abused? BECAUSE THE RESIDING/CONTROLLING GOVERNMENT ALLOWS IT.

Why am I blaming this on America? Because it IS AMERICA'S FAULT. I am NOT denying the Mexican government isn't at fault also but it IS the American government's fault.

Since the end of the Mexican revolution the AMERICAN government has implemented who it wanted in a seat of power.
The American government has armed the Mexican government only AFTER the Mexican-American war and only after it disposed of Madero and replaced it with Huerta.
It prospers and flames the current imigration of Mexicans into the United States.
It has armed the Mexican police.
It has armed and trained special Mexican Commando's to specifically repel insurgencies, especially leftist and Marxists one's.

Everything and anything CAN and IS applied to the actual Mexican governments fault. I don't solely blame one and not the other.


You speak as if no one ever, or has never spoken up unless they've crossed the border. People protest the Mexican government everyday. But it does no good. I think it must come down to a violent revolution. And I think it will.

So basically you believe in passing the buck.........

No I don't. Like I said I don't believe reform in Mexico is possible. At least not one achieved by verbal means.

Gold and silver (if you can afford platinum thats good also.) Purchase in 10 ounce bullion if you have the cash. If not purchase in one ounce (ten ounce = more bang for the buck.) For further details send me and I will give you the link to where I purchase. Some places/dealers/sellers will charge you a "storage fee" in case you don't feel "safe."

Cool. I might just do that. I've never trusted the dollar. It's a worthless piece of paper with a guys face on it.

Shit, ALL of the people who run the economy are in seats of political power (or they work behind the scenes.) However, if american citizens understood how the economy works, how money operates etc you would have WAR between the citizens and those in power, and I don't mean a price war. The PEOPLE should control the economy, however, due to greed international bankers and private entities own this country....LITERALLY...

And yes, when the next "terrorist" attack happens it will most likely be blamed on the border issue.

You know how long it took me to learn that? I don't even like going into my job anymore because at times I look at it as modern day slavery.

Look, this is a VERY simple concept. Clean your house FIRST. Protesting here is like putting a band aid on someone who has multiple .50 bullet holes in his grill. Yes itwill stop the bleeding for how long? 2 seconds? The fact is change will NOT happen unless the mexican government receieves the same (if not more) protest. If the mexican government (or ANY government where illegals come from) are not held responsible it will solve nothing. These governments are HAPPY that the dregs of society are carted off, and you know whats interesting? Think about early american history and why the colonizers where here in the first place.

Like I said before this IS coming. Nationalism is sweeping America and the United States wont be able to stop it. Once it hits MEXICO it's game over. That's why I personally believe they've always had a hand in Mexican politics because they know that the proximity issue will destroy them.

So blame america? Don't hate the player. Hate the game........

America the player? America is a captain save a ho. Game recognize game HERESY and I know who Israel is.

 

[:ab:]

Great reading, great thread. Couple quick points for me.

Illegals, Mexican or not, cannot receive welfare, and therefore are not a drain on the system in that respect. Their incomes are SIGNIFICANTLY lower than a citizen. This, in turn, Keeps wages low in area, mainly agriculture is the mainstay industry, meaning there are no other job opportunities. So not only is poverty transferred from the immigrants' country of origin to America, they keep down wages, reducing the standard of living for the existing residents.
NOt a judgment. This is the economic reality. I live in Fresno currently, and this place epitomizes a lot of issues related to immigration, illegal or otherwise.

I can't go on otherwise i'd be writing pages like above me.....lol
but it's a human thing...you can quote numbers and sources and anything, but in the end, can you really deny the oppotunity for another human being to thrive? I can't do it, personally...

 

[:ab:]

Oh, and the outsourcing out of the country, that is just a reflection of the increased globalized nature of the world.....Everyone is getting educated now, people can have higher standards of living in places in the world not associated with such things. that's a beautiful thing. fuck my grammar spelling and puncuation.

 

[HERESY]

You talk about common sense, here’s one for you.You say that 3 million illegal immigrants enter this nation every year, yet the last amnesty was 20 years ago.

So? What does amnesty have to do with the fact that 3 million illegals enter this country every year? If you want to be technical, the illegals ARE violating THE LAWS OF THE LAND and SHOULD be prosecuted and removed under the current laws.

The problem with this “estimate” is that another estimate these ANAL-ysts spit out says that there are about 11 to 12 million illegals currently in the US. This isn’t rocket science Heresy, it just takes a calculator if you can’t do the math in your head. These lying sons of bitches should at least make their lies compatible with each other.

So, I am supposed to take your word for it? Mig, we all know the Latino population will be the MAJORITY in less than a decade. If the numbers are off (as you imply), that would mean independent studies that yielded the SAME results are WRONG. The links YOU provided to support your claim place the numbers at 11 to 12 million illegal immigrants in this country. If you believe the numbers are off, why are you citing a yahoo article as a credible source to validate your claim? Any person reading this will now see you want to take what fits your agenda and discard the rest.

These lying sons of bitches should at least make their lies compatible with each other.

Make the lies compatible with each other? Every source I cited is credible, and if you do not like it, you are free to provide alternate numbers based on a credible source. The sources I cited stem from studies and numbers from 1992 all the way to 2002. The studies cover a wide range of topics from medi-care to unemployment. How are the numbers NOT compatible?

Something is driving you to take these numbers as fact yet a little common sense tells you that they are incorrect.

Actually, I personally believe the number is HIGHER, however the majority of the studies and experts place the number at 11 to 12 million, and THOSE PUSHING FOR ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION PLACE THE NUMBERS AT 11 TO 12 MILLION SO WHERE IN THE HELL ARE YOU GETTING YOUR NUMBERS FROM?!?!?!

If you are to believe that there are 12 million illegal aliens living in the US then this means that an average of 600,000 illegals enter the US each year since 1986.And that is way off from the 3 million they’re paranoid about!

What kind of math is this? How are you going to compare the AVERAGE that spans a 20-year period to the current numbers? How can you logically compare 600k to 3 million, and attempt to pass it off as paranoia when it has been PROVEN by BOTH sides that the numbers ARE rising? Why are you using 1986 as a gauging point? Why are you NOT using 1965? Simply put, your math has no basis and logic or fact. Did you actually READ the charts you provided? :dead:

You fear that illegal immigration will have a negative impact on our economy?That and over population.
Ok, valid fears if you ask me.

First off, the money that goes back to the community has always been budgeted like everything else. Sam just takes a piece of the pie, but instead of keeping it for himself he gives the piece to the people while he keeps the rest of the pie. What does this mean to me? It means that my tax money that goes back to the public system has already been cut to the side and no matter what I do, some poor person’s gonna get it.

How are you going to distribute this wealth amongst the poor if MORE poor people are coming here and NOT contributing? Earlier, you said america does NOTHING for the impoverished now you are claiming money is set aside for poor people. So which is it?

Which is fine with me because I’m all for helping the needy, I’m not here to pass judgment and decide whether these individuals deserve it or not.

This is not a case of passing judgment. This is a case of handling your OWN country and your OWN citizens FIRST. What you are saying is american citizens should NOT be a priority and should receive LOWER benefits so ILLEGAL immigrants who are BREAKING THE LAW can have it easy, not stand up for a change in Mexico and get freebies.

I have enough money in my pockets to keep me going, in other words I can spare a dollar or two for the homeless guy outside of the grocery store!

Why are you comparing a homeless man outside of a store to MILLIONS of people who receive BILLIONS in aid ILLEGALLY?!?! You have a CHOICE to give the homeless guy a buck or two. With that being said, you SHOULD want your money regulated and given to CITIZENS who are in need.

It doesn’t even make sense when you think about it, “Oh I won’t give him a dollar because he’s this or he’s that!”. It doesn’t make sense because sparing a dollar isn’t going to set you back much! That there is called greed….

SPARING BILLIONS OF DOLLARS ON PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT YOUR CITIZENS IS A LOT....ESPECIALLY WHEN YOUR COUNTRY IS TRILLIONS IN DEBT.

My concern and every citizen’s concern needs to be with the rest of the tax money.You know, the billions of dollars that go to waste and actually affect our economy….

This thread deals with immigration law. Why are you bringing up military spending? Yes, funding for this war is absurd, but do not DOWNPLAY the illegal immigration problem. Leave your Red Herring at the door and stick with the current issue, which is Immigration. I say this because you previously mentioned war, yet when you were asked about it, you FAILED to address the question.

You cats let politicians blind you with illegal immigrants, the prison system, and public welfare. You do not see that this is just a smoke screen for the rest of the money they pocket. How much goes to our military so that we can spread Sam’s capitalistic agenda?Billions billions billions.
IF ANYONE CARES TO WAKE UP, PLEASE FOLLOW THIS LINK:
http://www.warresisters.org/piechart.htm

And, you let brown pride blind you, but you don't see anyone here pointing that out do you? In addition, the link you gave is a BIASED site that ADMITS having different numbers from other groups. Here is the FINE PRINT:

Analysts differ on how much of the debt stems from the military; other groups estimate 50% to 60%. We use 80% because we believe if there had been no military spending most (if not all) of the national debt would have been eliminated. For further explanation, please see box at bottom of page.

At least these lying sons of bitches could have been compatible with the others.

I am not buying into the “theory” that illegal aliens are killing the economy.

This is your right, however you have provided NO EVIDENCE or numbers of your own to prove they are NOT contributing to the death of the economy. I would also like to point out that you continue to avoid questions. You grouped all of my info, sources, questions and answers and provided me with one big reply based on speculation and a half assed math equation.

Let me see, illegal aliens often seek medical assistance like everyone else requires.Hmmm…. That’s true.Some say that they partake in this nation’s welfare system.First off, most ER’s won’t even take you without medical insurance now days.And those illegals that are attended via ER’s and doctor offices pay their bills just like everyone else does. It goes to show the level of distortion found in these so-called statistics these research agencies come up with.

Where are your numbers to validate your claims? I am saying illegals are receiving aid and I am providing sources. YOU are talking out your ass and attempting to disprove it with NOTHING!!! Can you give me ANY source that says illegals pay their bills like everyone else? I cited a source that said they don't, and I would appreciate it if you gave a source that can be researched and disputed and not just something from your imagination. You have provided NO proof to show these research agencies are distorted, yet you claim they are. If you are going to make accusations back it up with facts, figures etc. Also, do you know about the laws pertaining to ER treatment, and human beings (even if they are illegal.) If so what are your views?

And as far as I personally know, seeking welfare help is very risky business for an illegal.

Indeed, I imagine it is when you don't have fake SS# and false documentation.

Every illegal immigrant I know is paranoid about his secret, the last thing they’ll want to do is jeopardize their journey. These are hard working people who had the courage to make the long journey here.

Jargon.

The average anti illegal immigrant is puzzled as to why Sam won’t close the border with a 50’ tall fence and armed guards. Yet the obvious reason for this is because Sam knows he needs illegal aliens to exploit.

So, WHY do you want the people to be CONTINUALLY EXPLOITED?!?!?!

If you disagree then explain to me how I’m wrong. This has been going on since the beginning, long before Islamic terrorism so that excuse does not qualify. Why do you think Sam is fighting a phony war against drugs?
Sam depends on the dollars it profits from it each year. It’s free money for him, he’d be stupid if he was to shut down drug trafficking altogether.

I have addressed this in the other thread. Please refer to it. If you know uncle sam is getting rich from drugs why do you want the borders to be open?

Why people aren’t able to grasp this is beyond me, so you’ll never understand why Sam does the same with illegal immigration….

I have already covered the drug issue, and you'll never understand why you don't make any sense. On one hand you are saying it is wrong for the people
to be exploited, but on the other hand you are saying to let them over here to be exploited. Not only that, you're also advocating more drug trafficking. Shaky........

Here’s a more diplomatic article in contrast to what you’ve been hearing from Bill O’Reily, Sean Hannity, and Luo Dobbs:
http://www.fortwayne.com/mld/newssen...g/14307978.htm

Here are KEY POINTS from that article:

It's complicated all over. One of the staunchest Democratic support groups, poor black folks, are often in competition for jobs with immigrants. On the low end of things, the point has been made that these jobs are ones that most Americans don't want to do.

That's true, but lots of them are jobs that the least educated black people and other poorer Americans did do until cheaper labor came along. More Americans would do those jobs if the pay were higher, which it would be with a smaller labor pool and especially with a labor pool that did not include people whose immigration status invites exploitation.

The attack has already been placed on this border “issue”.

As a source of possible attack.

From personal experience, Hong Kong (not really a nation I know), Singapore, and Malaysia. The reason is that they actually care about the homeless. Whether it’s from the heart or for personal gain. Here in the states we’re too greedy to do it for either reason.Here’s how selfish we are, we make laws to outlaw panhandling….

Too greedy to do it for either reason? Well, according to MEXCOM the government does it to benefit itself. Again, do these places have few hammerless citizens because they are NOT industrialized?

It is 1 a.m. and I need some sleep. For clarification purposes try not to answer this until I finish the rest of the reply.

 

[HERESY]

Great reading, great thread. Couple quick points for me.

Illegals, Mexican or not, cannot receive welfare, and therefore are not a drain on the system in that respect. Their incomes are SIGNIFICANTLY lower than a citizen. This, in turn, Keeps wages low in area, mainly agriculture is the mainstay industry, meaning there are no other job opportunities. So not only is poverty transferred from the immigrants' country of origin to America, they keep down wages, reducing the standard of living for the existing residents.
NOt a judgment. This is the economic reality. I live in Fresno currently, and this place epitomizes a lot of issues related to immigration, illegal or otherwise.

I can't go on otherwise i'd be writing pages like above me.....lol
but it's a human thing...you can quote numbers and sources and anything, but in the end, can you really deny the oppotunity for another human being to thrive? I can't do it, personally...

It has already been documented that a vast amount of ILLEGALS receive care because of FRAUD. This fraud is attributed to FAKE/STOLEN/FALSE ss#'s, birth certificates, immigration documents, id's etc. I have already cited the source, and only a person who has no knowledge pertaining to the situation would make the claim you made. Also, it must be noted that the ILLEGAL immigrants ARE able to recieve aid on behalf of their children.

Low income workers + children getting aid (parents doing it on their behalf) = more money from taxpayers.

 

[Lamberto Quintero]

Children getting aid= Mostly US Citizens.

Heresy, you can provide all the numbers in the world (as you often do so), but you will never truly see what most of these people go through on a daily basis. Most of these people are honest and hard working people just trying to provide for their families. They work the toughest of jobs and very often are underpaid. The mentality that goes through the minds of most of these people, is that they are less of a people. They have been getting exploited like this for a very long time, and it's still hard to get them to speak up about it and get the rights they deserve as working people. The bottom line is that you are talking about 12, 13 million people made up of families. These are families led by parents who made the sacrifice to come here and go through with all the bull shit in order to make a better life for themselves, but mostly their children. Of course you can say that it's their choice to be here and it's their fault for getting exploited, but don't ignore the fact that Mexico is not a place of opportunities. Unless you grew up in Mexico and know how it really is over there, you will never be truly able to understand why people come here. Why go through all of this? For their family! They sacrifice their lives for their children, and some people have the capacity to call them criminals.

You argue the fact that these people should complain in Mexico about the lack of opportunities there, and you say it like it's so easy. Do you know how the government in control of Mexico is? Do you have any idea about how things have been ran since the revolution up until 2000? This country is trying to recover from how fucked up and corrupted their government has been the last century. And there are resistinces in Mexico, ever heard of EZLN? If not, I suggest you read up on them before accusing the people of Mexico for not trying to change anything. Read on the different movements that happened during the revolution, and how the US interfered and supported the powers which would benefit their interest. Read about NAFTA and the impact it had on the people of Mexico, and how the US benefits from this. Yes, Mexico has its own problems and they definetely need to be solved. But, a lot of the problems came from intervention by the United States aside from the crooked politicians running the show.

I am not going to even try and argue with you the effects which these people have towards the economy. But the bottom line is that most these people are just trying to make a living in this place and are not criminals. I guess it is easy to ignore this when the people are not your people, but they ARE mine.

 

[HERESY]

Children getting aid= Mostly US Citizens.

And when parents recieve aid on behalf of the children what do you call it?

Heresy, you can provide all the numbers in the world (as you often do so), but you will never truly see what most of these people go through on a daily basis.

Why should I see what they go through on a daily basis? Do they see what I have gone through on a daily basis? Do they rally for me? HELL NO!!!! Also, you have us citizens that are in a bad fix and these are the people we need to help.

Most of these people are honest and hard working people just trying to provide for their families.

I am not saying anything to the contrary. I am sure most of them are hard working people trying to provide for their families. I am also sure 11 to 12 million of them have broken the law and entered this country illegally. I also understand a lot of them use illegal means to gain benefits.

They work the toughest of jobs and very often are underpaid.

At least they are getting paid.

The mentality that goes through the minds of most of these people, is that they are less of a people. They have been getting exploited like this for a very long time, and it's still hard to get them to speak up about it and get the rights they deserve as working people.

It is hard to get them to speak about it? It sure didn't seem hard yesterday when MILLIONS were out protesting! It sure won't be hard when they "shut down" for a day in protest. IF THEY CAN PULL THAT SHIT HERE THEY CAN PULL THAT SHIT IN WHATEVER COUNTRY THEY COME FROM.

The bottom line is that you are talking about 12, 13 million people made up of families. These are families led by parents who made the sacrifice to come here and go through with all the bull shit in order to make a better life for themselves, but mostly their children. Of course you can say that it's their choice to be here and it's their fault for getting exploited, but don't ignore the fact that Mexico is not a place of opportunities. Unless you grew up in Mexico and know how it really is over there, you will never be truly able to understand why people come here. Why go through all of this? For their family! They sacrifice their lives for their children, and some people have the capacity to call them criminals.

They are called criminals because they are breaking the law, and this is the truth. If mexico (or any other country) is not a place of opportunity why not make it one? You speak highly of these people for making a sacrifice as if I am supposed to feel sympathy for them. No, I do NOT feel sympathy for them You want to know why? Because they don't want to make a TRUE sacrifice. They want to FLEE the problem and you endorse this. THESE PEOPLE SHOULD MAKE A CHANGE OR STAND UP FOR THEMSELVES IN THEIR OWN HOMELAND.

You argue the fact that these people should complain in Mexico about the lack of opportunities there, and you say it like it's so easy.

Sure its easy, and if it calls for force by all means do it. You speak as if its hard. If its so hard why are they protesting and having 500k marches back to back HERE?

Do you know how the government in control of Mexico is? Do you have any idea about how things have been ran since the revolution up until 2000? This country is trying to recover from how fucked up and corrupted their government has been the last century.

And how has this country been governed? Like some type of utopia or Eden?!?!?! Mexicos economy is currently ranked between 10 - 14, so don't make it seem as if the country is in total shambles. Yes, it is still recovering from mishaps, however it is also recovering because the lower class are LEAVING!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Mexico
http://www.geoinvestor.com/statistics/mexico/economicdata.htm

And there are resistinces in Mexico, ever heard of EZLN? If not, I suggest you read up on them before accusing the people of Mexico for not trying to change anything.

3 million that are LEAVING per year are NOT trying to change anything. 500K to 1 million protestors are NOT trying to change anything in mexico. EZLN. One group. Enough said.

If not, I suggest you read up on them before accusing the people of Mexico for not trying to change anything. Read on the different movements that happened during the revolution, and how the US interfered and supported the powers which would benefit their interest. Read about NAFTA and the impact it had on the people of Mexico, and how the US benefits from this. Yes, Mexico has its own problems and they definetely need to be solved.

NAFTA effected all countries involved and not just mexico. I do not deny u.s. involvement and funding of those who benefit their interest (chevron funding the rebels of sudan is an example), but you fail to realize that these people CAN make a difference IF they force the governments hand.

But, a lot of the problems came from intervention by the United States aside from the crooked politicians running the show.

So why not protest us intervention?!?!?!

I am not going to even try and argue with you the effects which these people have towards the economy. But the bottom line is that most these people are just trying to make a living in this place and are not criminals. I guess it is easy to ignore this when the people are not your people, but they ARE mine.

Who is ignoring teh issue? I said to mak ethem go through the process of becoming citizens so they can make full contributions to the country. Also, ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION is not exclusive to mexico so how are all immigrants your people? These people are not criminals? They have broken the laws of the land, and the law says they are criminals. Are they commiting acts of crime against morality/humanity (like murder?) No. Are they commiting infractions such as TRESSPASSING? YES, THUS THEY ARE CRIMINALS WHO HAVE VIOLATED THE LAW (AND SOME NEED TO BE PROSECUTED.)

 

[Lamberto Quintero]

I was reffering to the Mexican illegal immigrants as my people, not all. I should have been more specific. And the same way you talk about these people as being cowards and not taking care of problems at home, I could say the same for all the Europeans who came here and conquered the real Natives of this land. Why didn't they take care of their own problems in England and Ireland and Italy etc? Why did they come here? In look for opportunity, correct? If THEY were allowed to do it, then anyone saying that it's wrong for Mexicans to do it while just accepting the Europeans' conquest of the Natives is a racist hypocrite.

PS. If these families are criminals for being here illegaly, what are the Europeans who came here? They almost slaughtered an entire race.

 

[HERESY]

I was reffering to the Mexican illegal immigrants as my people, not all.

And, it would be probably safe to say that you only care about the mexican immigrants and don't give a shit about the other immigrants.

And the same way you talk about these people as being cowards and not taking care of problems at home, I could say the same for all the Europeans who came here and conquered the real Natives of this land.

Actually, you can't say that about all of the europeans who came here. You know why you can't? Because a lot of the europeans that came over here were SHIPPED over here as criminals. They were the scourge of society. Also, the colonies waged war against the British rule, thus gaining independence. Mexicans/natives LOST the battle, and let me remind you that "spaniards" were a contributor to the destruction of indeginous/native people as well.

Why didn't they take care of their own problems in England and Ireland and Italy etc? Why did they come here? In look for opportunity, correct?

SEE THE ABOVE.

If THEY were allowed to do it, then anyone saying that it's wrong for Mexicans to do it while just accepting the Europeans' conquest of the Natives is a racist hypocrite.

"THEY" were allowed to do it because it was the 1600/1700's and NO LAWS WERE IN FORCE THAT PROHIBITED THEM FROM DOING IT. No one is saying the europeans were right for slaughtering the natives (who some mexicans didn't even consider mexican), butchering Afrikans and building this country. What I AM saying is the europeans took the shit by force, and that once your land is taken the ONLY way you can get it back is if it is GIVEN back or TAKEN. Are you saying mexicans should take this land by force? If not why are you comparing them to the europeans who did take it by force? If you are saying they should take it by force you yourself are the hypocrite that you speak so highly of!

PS. If these families are criminals for being here illegaly, what are the Europeans who came here? They almost slaughtered an entire race.

They are criminals against humanity.

 

[Lamberto Quintero]

And, it would be probably safe to say that you only care about the mexican immigrants and don't give a shit about the other immigrants.

It wouldn't be safe. If this was happening to another nationality, I would feel the same way. I definetely wouldn't be as passionate about it as I am about Mexicans, but I would have the same exact views.

Actually, you can't say that about all of the europeans who came here. You know why you can't? Because a lot of the europeans that came over here were SHIPPED over here as criminals. They were the scourge of society. Also, the colonies waged war against the British rule, thus gaining independence. Mexicans/natives LOST the battle, and let me remind you that "spaniards" were a contributor to the destruction of indeginous/native people as well.

Ok, so some of them were shipped as criminals. Doesn't that make it worse? I don't see your logic with that point. They won the war against Britain, so that made it ok for them to take the land of America as their own? Their independence from Britain is not even close to the same struggle these people face. I don't see how the war of independence from Britain has anything to do with this or what your point is. And yes, Spaniards are to blame as much as any other EUROPEAN for the destruction of the natives. Last time I checked, Spain was still part of Europe. So when I say European, it does include Spain. It doesn't change the fact that you say Mexicans here are cowards for not taking care of business in their own country, yet you defend these Europeans who in essence did the same exact thing.

"THEY" were allowed to do it because it was the 1600/1700's and NO LAWS WERE IN FORCE THAT PROHIBITED THEM FROM DOING IT. No one is saying the europeans were right for slaughtering the natives (who some mexicans didn't even consider mexican), butchering Afrikans and building this country. What I AM saying is the europeans took the shit by force, and that once your land is taken the ONLY way you can get it back is if it is GIVEN back or TAKEN. Are you saying mexicans should take this land by force? If not why are you comparing them to the europeans who did take it by force? If you are saying they should take it by force you yourself are the hypocrite that you speak so highly of!

THEY were not allowed to do it, THEY used force. Laws or no laws, they took the land without consent and by using force, like you said. As much as the Indeginious rage in me tells me to take back the land that was taken, I know this is not going to happen. Therefore, I am not saying Mexicans should take this land by force. I am talking about allowing these people to live here, work here, and continue to provide for their families.

 

[miggidy]

So, I am supposed to take your word for it? Mig, we all know the Latino population will be the MAJORITY in less than a decade. If the numbers are off (as you imply), that would mean independent studies that yielded the SAME results are WRONG. The links YOU provided to support your claim place the numbers at 11 to 12 million illegal immigrants in this country. If you believe the numbers are off, why are you citing a yahoo article as a credible source to validate your claim? Any person reading this will now see you want to take what fits your agenda and discard the rest.

Make the lies compatible with each other? Every source I cited is credible, and if you do not like it, you are free to provide alternate numbers based on a credible source. The sources I cited stem from studies and numbers from 1992 all the way to 2002. The studies cover a wide range of topics from medi-care to unemployment. How are the numbers NOT compatible?

Actually, I personally believe the number is HIGHER, however the majority of the studies and experts place the number at 11 to 12 million, and THOSE PUSHING FOR ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION PLACE THE NUMBERS AT 11 TO 12 MILLION SO WHERE IN THE HELL ARE YOU GETTING YOUR NUMBERS FROM?!?!?!

What do you mean so? Your own sources say that there are as much as 12 million illegals living in the US (and of course I seriously doubt this number because no illegal immigrant I know is willing to take a census count or a poll). If 3 million illegals enter this nation on a yearly basis then we could have as much as 60 million illegas living in the US. This is according to the same numbers you put your faith in. You need to specify on this 3 million you keep mentioning.

Take what you want, I’m making the counter argument since no one else here is willing to step up to the plate. Where are the numbers that suggest the Latino population will be the majority because of illegal immigration?

I provided the links because ALL of your sources believe that there are 11 to 12 million illegal immigrants living in the US. Again, this really isn’t that complicated. Their numbers are screwed…. The last amnesty was 20 years ago, that’s a fact and not speculation like your numbers. I could give a shit who and how many of these racist pricks come up with numbers. They’re all distorted and I’ve shown you that their numbers don’t even add up. But if you want to take them as credible sources, be my guest.

So? What does amnesty have to do with the fact that 3 million illegals enter this country every year? If you want to be technical, the illegals ARE violating THE LAWS OF THE LAND and SHOULD be prosecuted and removed under the current laws.
What kind of math is this? How are you going to compare the AVERAGE that spans a 20-year period to the current numbers? How can you logically compare 600k to 3 million, and attempt to pass it off as paranoia when it has been PROVEN by BOTH sides that the numbers ARE rising? Why are you using 1986 as a gauging point? Why are you NOT using 1965? Simply put, your math has no basis and logic or fact. Did you actually READ the charts you provided?

Isn’t it obvious? The last amnesty was in 1986.

Ok so now you’re finally addressing the issue, good. Now you’re implying that the numbers are rising. 3 million a year? You said it, I didn’t. I have no faith in the sources at all. Again no matter how bad you want it to be, these articles aren’t fact. It’s only speculation, just go and ask these people for their sources. But let’s hypothetically say illegal immigration is rising by the tune of 3 million in recent years, would it be any different to you if they were entering legally?

Yeah illegal immigration is rising http://pewhispanic.org/reports/report.php?ReportID=53

Your numbers are incorrect…. According to a CPS survey of March last year, there were currently 11.1 illegals living in the US. By their estimates (and this is where everyone gets their numbers regarding the current illegals headcount) there should be somewhere between 11.5 to 12 million illegals here today. Where do you get your 3 million from???? Can you prove that these mythological 3 million illegals will all jump on welfare?
http://pewhispanic.org/reports/report.php?ReportID=61

How are you going to distribute this wealth amongst the poor if MORE poor people are coming here and NOT contributing? Earlier, you said america does NOTHING for the impoverished now you are claiming money is set aside for poor people. So which is it?

What makes you think the poor don’t contribute? As broke as I’ve been, no one gives me tax breaks! Uncle Sam doesn’t do jack$hit for the poor. Poor people pay their taxes just like everyone else. Why is this so hard to understand?

Do you honestly think that the lower class doesn’t pay their taxes? Yet it’s the upper class that owes more than anyone else each year in tax evasion.

This is not a case of passing judgment. This is a case of handling your OWN country and your OWN citizens FIRST. What you are saying is american citizens should NOT be a priority and should receive LOWER benefits so ILLEGAL immigrants who are BREAKING THE LAW can have it easy, not stand up for a change in Mexico and get freebies.

Who’s law? Who are we as humans to pass judgment on other human beings? We are all equal. Citizen or not, these illegals are paying their taxes, they are not here to take advantage of our welfare system. They are here to work! I don’t care what Michael Savage and Luo Dobbs tells you, that just isn’t the case.

Why are you comparing a homeless man outside of a store to MILLIONS of people who receive BILLIONS in aid ILLEGALLY?!?! You have a CHOICE to give the homeless guy a buck or two. With that being said, you SHOULD want your money regulated and given to CITIZENS who are in need.

You see these people as criminals who are here to take advantage of our public systems but I see them as human beings who contribute to their society. Rich or poor, it doesn’t matter because they pay their taxes. It’s my choice to give a few dollars to the needy. I don’t have a choice as to what Sam does with my money. If he wants to throw in a few dollars back to our poor (from MY money) that is great! But I won’t discriminate and give to the alleged higher class citizens over illegal immigrants. They all get an equal amount…. My real concern is with my tax money that goes into our military to terrorize other poor people.

SPARING BILLIONS OF DOLLARS ON PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT YOUR CITIZENS IS A LOT....ESPECIALLY WHEN YOUR COUNTRY IS TRILLIONS IN DEBT.

Yes it’s a lot of money but they need the cash more than I do, certainly more than Sam “thinks” he needs it….

This thread deals with immigration law. Why are you bringing up military spending? Yes, funding for this war is absurd, but do not DOWNPLAY the illegal immigration problem. Leave your Red Herring at the door and stick with the current issue, which is Immigration. I say this because you previously mentioned war, yet when you were asked about it, you FAILED to address the question.

Because you brought up “spending” to begin with

And, you let brown pride blind you, but you don't see anyone here pointing that out do you? In addition, the link you gave is a BIASED site that ADMITS having different numbers from other groups. Here is the FINE PRINT:

Analysts differ on how much of the debt stems from the military; other groups estimate 50% to 60%. We use 80% because we believe if there had been no military spending most (if not all) of the national debt would have been eliminated. For further explanation, please see box at bottom of page.

At least these lying sons of bitches could have been compatible with the others.

So now you’re gonna take Uncle Sam’s side for the sake of attempting to back a personal argument? You’re not going to find many sources on this because this is something your Uncle would rather leave under the table. The first time I heard about this was on the BBC, 60% for the military and 15% for public welfare. Those numbers tend to fluctuate each year but they’re in line with the link I gave you and this one as well….
These cats show that it was 42% last year which falls along the lower end of the window given by the folks from the first link I gave you.
http://www.fcnl.org/pdfs/taxday06.pdf

And so what if people are doing this for “brown pride”? They have every right to do so and no one can question their willingness to take matters into their own hands. You’re willing to support the battle against America in Iraq but you’re against the rebirth of Aztlan movement. Both are about liberating their people from American imperialism. But wait, only one affects you, that’s very convenient isn’t it? Anyways this is about humanitarian pride and my personal war against humanity’s hypocritical selfish nature.

This is your right, however you have provided NO EVIDENCE or numbers of your own to prove they are NOT contributing to the death of the economy. I would also like to point out that you continue to avoid questions. You grouped all of my info, sources, questions and answers and provided me with one big reply based on speculation and a half assed math equation.

Where are your numbers to validate your claims? I am saying illegals are receiving aid and I am providing sources. YOU are talking out your ass and attempting to disprove it with NOTHING!!! Can you give me ANY source that says illegals pay their bills like everyone else? I cited a source that said they don't, and I would appreciate it if you gave a source that can be researched and disputed and not just something from your imagination. You have provided NO proof to show these research agencies are distorted, yet you claim they are. If you are going to make accusations back it up with facts, figures etc. Also, do you know about the laws pertaining to ER treatment, and human beings (even if they are illegal.) If so what are your views?

As a spiritual person my views are that no human being should be denied medical treatment. Even if it costs me 30 cents instead of 15 cents out of every one of my dollars Sam snatches for me.

A couple of years ago the IRS admitted to Fox News that they’re pocketing money from illegal immigrant income tax. Don’t ask me for the source because I heard it on TV so can’t help you here, staying current with current events is a mutha. The IRS was criticized by racists because they felt the IRS was encouraging illegals to remain anonymous by setting up a special procedure identifying them as having used false credentials but legitimate tax filers. Why did they do this? Because Sam and the IRS could care less that they’re illegals. All they see is $$$.

Illegals also help social security by the billions:
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/05/b...=78c87ac4641dc383&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland

Although a bit dated, the National Academy of Sciences reports how difficult it is to gather data regarding illegals.
http://fermat.nap.edu/execsumm_pdf/5516.pdf

Here the NAC proves how illegal immigrants combined with both amnesty and naturalized immigrants are actually helping our economy.
http://fermat.nap.edu/execsumm_pdf/5779.pdf
The methods might be old but they still work….
The NAC as of today sees no reason to update their reports….

Now explain to me why 3 states (Florida, Texas, Cali) where the huge majority of illegal immigrants tend to settle in, happen to be among the most richest states in the nation? Oh that really says a lot for illegals killing our nation’s economy

As for the “sources” you posted, they’re recycling the same story. A story which doesn’t have a foundation. I found zero information detailing how they reached their numbers. Perhaps instead of visually counting the people crossing the border, they can do you and Sam a favor and join the minute men in keeping Amerikkka safe from evil formula-milk sucking aliens

So, WHY do you want the people to be CONTINUALLY EXPLOITED?!?!?!

That’s like asking which way do you want to be killed. A slow and painful death or a slow and painful death with a little more cash on the side.

I have addressed this in the other thread. Please refer to it. If you know uncle sam is getting rich from drugs why do you want the borders to be open?

Who’s saying the borders are open? They’re only open to those Sam allows to get in.

I have already covered the drug issue, and you'll never understand why you don't make any sense. On one hand you are saying it is wrong for the people
to be exploited, but on the other hand you are saying to let them over here to be exploited. Not only that, you're also advocating more drug trafficking. Shaky........

They’re already being exploited in Mexico by both Mexican politics and American international corporations. Sure they’re being exploited here as well but at least they’re making much more money. And at the same time, we’re fighting for their equal rights in the work force even if they’re illegals. Chavez did it for the campesinos and many unions are doing it for illegals with in their work industries.

Here are KEY POINTS from that article:

It's complicated all over. One of the staunchest Democratic support groups, poor black folks, are often in competition for jobs with immigrants. On the low end of things, the point has been made that these jobs are ones that most Americans don't want to do.

That's true, but lots of them are jobs that the least educated black people and other poorer Americans did do until cheaper labor came along. More Americans would do those jobs if the pay were higher, which it would be with a smaller labor pool and especially with a labor pool that did not include people whose immigration status invites exploitation.

So this is why you appose illegal immigration? A valid reason that I can’t argue against. Although I have no clue what kind of jobs illegals are taking from poorer Americans. It seems to me that for as long as I can remember it’s always been Latinos who pick the fruit, clean your homes and offices, build your homes and offices, baby sit your children, and wash your cars. Whether they’re illegal or not. And going back in US history, this is the purpose that illegal aliens have always served. But for what ever reason, it has suddenly become a problem….

Too greedy to do it for either reason? Well, according to MEXCOM the government does it to benefit itself. Again, do these places have few hammerless citizens because they are NOT industrialized?

The governments probably do it for image as Maxcom was probably implying to. Some do it because they have religious base governments that call for sheltering the homeless. But the public does its part as well. Whether they do it by the love for their neighbor or again, for their benefit. I just brought this up to show that even for personal glorification, Sam will not clean up the homeless mess for the simple fact that it costs money. Sam is a very greedy individual, just ask any war vet.

*Goes back to playin Oblivion*

 

[HERESY]

@MEXCOM I didn't even see your last reply until just now. I'll address you before I answer the rest of migs post.

@Mig I politely asked you to REFRAIN from replying until I finished the rest of the reply. Now I have to open two pages to do it :dead:

 

[EDJ]

HERESY,
MY NIgK, I DON'T MEAN TO BE THE FEATHER IN YOUR ASS, BUT WHATEVA HAPPENED TO BEIN' MORE CONCERNED WITH CUBEVASE SX AND NOT gIVIN' A FUK ABOUT ALL THIS? TWO THREADS, PAgES UPON PAgES, AND UNLIMITED WORDS AND REPLIES LATER, LEADS ME TO BELIEVE OTHA-WISE. IF N-E-THANg, YOU SEEMED TO CARE MORE ABOUT THIS SHIT THAN N-E-OTHA PERSON I'VE SEEN SPEAKIN' AgAINST IMMIgRANTS. ??????

 

[HERESY]

HERESY,
MY NIgK, I DON'T MEAN TO BE THE FEATHER IN YOUR ASS, BUT WHATEVA HAPPENED TO BEIN' MORE CONCERNED WITH CUBEVASE SX AND NOT gIVIN' A FUK ABOUT ALL THIS? TWO THREADS, PAgES UPON PAgES, AND UNLIMITED WORDS AND REPLIES LATER, LEADS ME TO BELIEVE OTHA-WISE. IF N-E-THANg, YOU SEEMED TO CARE MORE ABOUT THIS SHIT THAN N-E-OTHA PERSON I'VE SEEN SPEAKIN' AgAINST IMMIgRANTS. ??????

Cubase sx IS more important than this which is why I have SKIPPED a couple of replies and won't be able to reply in depth for a couple of days. Also, I am simply partaking in a thread/debate/discussion that requires thought, attention and proper knowledge of the subject. You can believe otherwise, but is your contrary belief supposed to hold any weight or ruin my world? Of course not. BTW it DOESN'T take me long to type, and if I cared more about this than any other person speaking against ILLEGAL immigrants I would be organizing Anti-Illegal marches.

 

[EDJ]

^OH MAN, I KNOW YOU WOULDN'T TAKE IT THAT FAR. BUT THIS JUST REMINDS ME OF THE RELIgIOUS THREADS. BUT I DO AgREE THAT A LOT OF TIME IS TAKEN CAUSE THIS SHIT IS COMPLICATED. PLUS THIS IS MORE EMOTIONAL FOR SOME CAUSE IT HITS HOME.

 

[FoeTwin]

Friend.....if immigrants are working for BELOW minimum wage, due to exploitation by the Richer class, why should they come here? Surely they cannot afford to make a living here with the scraps they are illegally being thrown.

^ In the city where I work, construction is booming out of control. Auburn, Alabama is in the top three cities for the most active construction projects in America. Therefore, one can only imagine what the workers on the sites are mostly comrised of, yes black and hispanic peoples. A gentelman who works for a realty company told me that he went to a 3 bedroom apartment last week where some "mexicans" were living (unfortunatley, around here all illegals of hispanic decent are labeled as Mexican whether they are from there or not). He told me that he hauled out 23 matresses out of the apartment! Damn, I wonder who slept in the bathtub? See, people are coming to America to do work under the table tax free and live communally and share all living expenses. That sounds pretty smart, but I was thinking about moving to Mexico and becoming a citizen, then sneaking across the boarder and finding work in the US -- that way I can avoid my surrogate uncle by default from snatchin the stiches out my pockets. You know, find a way to circumvent all of the bullshit associated with being on some employees payrole.

As to the laws that they are tryig to pass, I think deporting them, or jailing those who help them is stupid and illogical. Instead, I think they should have to definately pay taxes and become naturalized after 7 years, learning the pledge, and how to communicate efficiently in Spanglish, the legit way. Native indians were here before the influx of european outcasts came, africans were brought here against their will, and now, everyone's trying to get rid of the peoples wohse anscestors inhabited this land before this nation was even born. Silly Poly-tricks!

:lick: