First off Heresy, my post was not aimed at you on a personal level.
It was aimed at those who the shoe fits, whether the shoe fits you doesn't matter. I just want to you know that speaking to cats in general….
I have no problem with this. If you were speaking to me, direct or indirectly is of little concern. I am simply addressing a post nothing more.
I should’ve kept tabs on these boards.Fear is very powerful, and those who can control it can influence the masses.Fear’s getting the best of you bro. Don’t let these cats push it on you….
Bro, this is not fear at work. This is logic, common sense and looking at the present facts. The fact is this economy is in shambles. The fact is this economy will become worse if it has to take on 3 million ILLEGAL people each year. Fear would be someone saying to get rid of all the immigrants (including the illegal ones.) Fear would be failing to answer questions or failure to provide some type of method for solving the problem. I am against 3 million ILLEGAL immigrants each year. I am NOT against 3 million LEGAL immigrants who have gone through the system of becoming a citizen and contribute.
If an attack happens, it’s a tragedy regardless of who is hit. The problem with this is that an attack can come from any border and within our borders, no matter how secure Americans “think” they are. An attack is imminent, just wait until uncle Sam’s running low of the fear spell and you’ll see the next one….
Moreover, you don't think the attack will be placed on the border problem? It would be EASIER to place the blame on the border problem than to let the public know "The Russians detonated a suitcase nuke." or "Mossad just blew up a bridge." Which is the PUBLIC more likely to accept? An attack coming in from the Mexican border which has hundreds of thousands ILLEGAL people coming in each MONTH or some alternative reality like Mossad or Russia?
When has our economy ever sustained the poor?
I guess welfare, social aid programs; section 8 housing, GA, wic, and food stamps programs just MAGICALLY appear out of thin air.
Oh, I get it! IT'S MANNA FROM THE GOOD LORD!
I’ve been to 3rd world countries that are poor in comparison to the US, and have NO homeless people. Again, no homeless people.
Where are these places and why are they 3rd world countries? Could the reason for LACK of homelessness be attributed to the fact that these 3rd world countries have not been industrialized?
There might be poverty, but they take care of the next man. I want to see the numbers that suggest these illegal immigrants can’t sustain themselves.
If they CAN sustain themselves, WHY are they even coming HERE? Please refer to the other thread for more info.
All the ones I know make enough cash to earn a living. And if they’re struggling, they find a way. I’ve not only seen this with my own eyes but I lived it.
Do they find a way by sneaking into a country illegally?
You ask, what will America do with so many impoverished people?
What it has always done…. Nothing….
If it has always done nothing that would imply free lunch programs, general assistance, section 8 housing, food stamps, medi-care (including free prenatal care, dental AND medicine), public schooling, pell grants, vouchers, food-stamps and homeless shelters
ARE FIGMENTS OF OUR IMAGINATION AND NEVER REALLY EXISTED!
I would like to know how many of these so-called illegals are below poverty level because as far as I know, the “campesinos” are the only ones under it.
Refer to the previous thread or posts. This has already been covered.
I would venture to say that most illegals are at the low class level,
but I don’t see how this is any different than it’s ever been.
Fact is most illegals ARE at the low class level, and this is something no one will dispute. You probably do not see how this is any different because you effectively ignore population growth, INCREASE of poverty AND the outsourcing of employment.
These poor people have enough to survive on, with or without our help.
So why come here? If they have enough to survive on in their own country why come here at all? If they do not have enough to survive on in their country, they need to FORCE their government’s hand. If they have enough to survive on here with or without our help that means they should be DENIED medical and other services (that are offered to everyone.)
I don’t buy into the bull$hit “theory” that illegal immigrants are costing us money. It’s an absurd lie.
And, I don't by into the bull$hit "theory" that illegal immigrants are
NOT costing us money. It is an
ABSURD lie.
According to the Santa Cruz Sentinel, March 17, 2002, Most of California's emergency departments operate at a loss. A study by the California Medical Association found 82 percent of the state's 347 emergency rooms lost money in 2000. Altogether, ERs
lost $325 million, while emergency physicians lost another
$110 million providing uncompensated care. Farmworkers and people working in the tourism, service or retail industries - which often don't provide benefits - make up the bulk of the county's uninsured.
Were the majority of these people illegals? You bet they were!
According to the Migration News, July 7, 1998 For fiscal year '97-'98, the state spent
$84 million on prenatal care for the same estimated 70,000 illegal alien women.
According to the San Francisco Chronicle, Dec. 20, 1997 California's Medi-Cal program has paid for prenatal care for illegal immigrants since 1988. The state spent
$83.7 million in the 1996-97 fiscal year to provide care for about 70,000 illegal alien women.
According to State Department of Health Services "Health care costs in California have continued to soar as people flood the state to take advantage of Medi-Cal. It is estimated that the state paid $1 billion in emergency and pregnancy-related services for undocumented aliens in 1993. This figure is up almost 43% from the
$700 million paid in 1992."
According to the San Francisco Examiner May 14, 1997 and S.F. Chronicle July 18, 1997 State funding for limited-English students has steadily increased to
$319 million today from
$108 million in 1986. Funding for low-income students [often blacks] decreased to
$64 million from
$93 million while the number of low-income students grew to 1.9 million from 1 million. The number of students who primarily speak a language other than English went to 1.3 million from 514,000. Another
$50 million in federal funding went directly to California's bilingual education programs. The prospect is for tensions over educational resource allocations between immigrants and poor native-English speakers to get much worse as the Latino student population rises to 50% of total student enrollment by 2005 (compared to today's 39%).
According to The Criminal Alien," a report by the California Joint Committee on Prison Construction and Operations, California and its regional governments spend more than
$500 million a year to arrest and imprison illegal immigrants who commit serious crimes. Total legal costs of crimes committed in California by people who are not legal U.S. residents is estimated to be between
$1 billion to $1.5 billion a year.
As you can see the illegals are costing the state (and country) money. If you have something contrary to these numbers by all means post them!
But you ask how much are the poor people in general costing us?
Nothing, they’re poor for a reason….
They are poor for a reason and are not costing us anything? Mig, please explain the numbers and dollar amounts I just posted up. Thanks.
Most of my tax dollars are going into the pockets of politicians and the armed forces. And that is what concerns me, I could care less about the 15% that goes back to our communities….
You could care less about 15% that goes back to the community? Where is your proof that the majority of your tax dollars go to politicians and armed forces and only 15% goes to the communities? Let us say these numbers were factual and this war prolonged for another 10 years.
How do you expect for the country to FUND the war AND take care of the citizens?
This is a very good link. You want to know why this link is so good? In actually ENDORSES what I am saying and DESTROYS your very position, Mig. Here are excerpts from YOUR source:
They are willing to work for lower wages than legal workers, helping to keep down prices. But illegal immigrants also can depress wages for unskilled, legal workers and strain local hospitals and schools.
Strike 1.
While consumers and businesses may benefit from such cheap labor, the U.S. born-worker could be hurt by it, according to some research.
Between 1980 and 2000, legal and illegal immigration reduced the average annual earnings of U.S.-born men by an estimated $1,700 or roughly 4 percent, according to research done in 2004 by George Borjas, economics professor at the John F. Kennedy School of Government at Harvard University. The situation was worse if one considers only the 10 million U.S.-born men who lack a high school degree. For them, the increased supply of workers depressed wages by 7.4 percent, he found.
Strike 2.
Illegal immigrants use federal, state and local resources, including schools, medical care and emergency services, straining government coffers and costing taxpayers money. However, many of the costs are tied to their kids — many of them American-born children who are U.S. citizens.
At the federal level, the big cost is through Medicaid and food-assistance programs, according to Steven Camarota, research director at the Center for Immigration Studies, which favors stricter immigration rules.
Camarota acknowledges that some illegal immigrants pay federal taxes, but he said their cost to the federal government — $12 billion, according to his estimate — is greater.
Strike 3. See ya, Mig!
As for your fear of these radical groups who have the “take back what’s ours” agenda, these cats are a minority among Mexican Americans for a reason.
I am not agitated nor do I have feelings of anxiety caused by any of this. Please limit your use of "fear" to its proper context. You do NOT deny the existence of the radical groups. Not only that but you FAIL to mention their influences.
Most of us do not agree with their views at all.
Who is most of us? The 500k to 1 million K protesters who recently protested? LOL! These people have influence, and when you stop living in denial, you will see the bigger picture.
But I understand your fear, you’re just reacting from extinct so it’s going to be hard for you to dismiss this as a low level threat.
My position is based on logic, facts, findings, and the TRUTH. If I had a position of fear I would say do away with ALL immigrants and DENY illegals, but this is NOT my position.
I am saying to make the illegals GO THROUGH THE PROCESS AND BECOME CONTRIBUTING CITIZENS!!
As for the problems with the Mexican economy, IT IS being addressed.
By who?
The majority of people who have taken notice to the source of the problem are not aware of what damages former Mexican president Carlos Salinas de Gortari did to the Mexican economy
What is the source of the problem? I need to know your take on this before I can address the former president. BTW, what is Mexico’s economy like now? Is it stronger now that he is out of office or is it worse?
It has caused the population to soar and has cost the government BILLIONS annually.
Current Mexican president Fox has taken a unique approach but what people don’t understand is that fixing an economy takes time.
No one is denying this and illegal immigrants can help the Mexican economy by contributing. Instead they LEAVE, come to america, work for LESS and subject themselves to more exploitation.
How long would it take for an economy to turn a 3 world country into one along the lines of the US?
This would depend on industrialization, goods & services offered, work force, value of the currency etc.
If I’m a poor person living in Nicaragua, I don’t have 25 years to spare while I wait for my government to transform. I’ll just go to the US where one US dollar equals 17 Cordobas. You and myself cannot blame these people.
Ok, I get it. Take the easy way out! Don't fight for a better system that your grandchildren and great children can appreciate 25 to 50 years from now! Run away from the problem! Be a coward! Don't stand up for yourself! No one is saying these people should starve or that they don't deserve a proper living, but who is going to make the sacrifice?
There’s a huge disparity between the currencies of the US and the rest of Latin America. Not every country is a Fiddler’s Green.The poor will always seek a better life so America is not the only rich country with an illegal immigration “issue”. This will always be the case as long as the wealthy heavily outnumber the poor. It gets worse when you realize that the wealthy will always remain wealthy as long as there is poor. In other words, it's an endless cycle....
No one is claiming america is the only country with an illegal immigration problem. This is a point no one has implied. However, how many countries have an immigration problem to a similar or GREATER extent than america? The wealthy outnumber the poor because of situations like this. Less wages, shitloads of workers, outsourcing etc. The problem WILL get worse as long as this country continues to grow with illegals that are at or below the poverty line.
Mig, how does that link support your position? Seriously, you are making my job easier because every source you have cited I have used against you (or plan on using it against you.) here lets take an excerpt from that site:
Mexico is the primary source country of both legal and illegal immigrants. Mexico accounted for about 30 percent of the foreign-born in 2000, and more than half of Mexicans residing in the United States in 2000 were illegal aliens
If 1/3 to half of the illegal immigrants are visa overstays do you know what that means? That means 2/3 to half can be attributed to illegals simply crossing the borders (NON-WORK RELATED/ NON-VISA OVERSTAY.)
It’s funny how they don’t even address illegal immigrants who enter through the much bigger Canadian border.
Mig, I did not ask you to list that site. You did it on your own. The Canadian border MIGHT be a larger border, but the fact is the fact is the majority of Illegal immigrants ARE coming in through Mexico. Did you READ the charts? Compare CANADA and MEXICO and see which one is a bigger problem. Any, person with the ability to properly read and understand the charts will tell you Mexico’s border is a larger problem.
There’s also no mention of illegals who enter via sea ports.
Common sense will tell you that most illegal immigrants don’t even come from the Southern border.
Most illegal immigrants are of latin/spanish background. Where are most illegals coming in from? Common sense does not tell ANYONE that most illegals don't come from the southern border. Common sense tells me to look at the numbers, stats and FACTS and guess what? These numbers support the claim (thus proving true) that the majority of illegals DO come from the border. It is a fact that the majority of illegals are from a certain racial background. If they are NOT coming in from the southern border, where are they coming from? Are you implying more illegals come in through seaports?
Yet the Southern border is the focus for obvious reasons.
The obvious reason is that it is an obviously larger problem.
How you cats buy into this $hit is beyond me, everyone knows the 911 high jackers were all visa overstays.
No such thing as 19 hi-jackers. How you buy into that is beyond me.
Again, this is fear doing the talking for you. How is this any different than the Nation of Islam, The Black Panther Party, The KKK, and the Arian Brotherhood?
1. The nation of islam is a religious based group. The nation of islam does NOT advocate taking over america and setting up a "black state." The nation of islam advocates black ownership, black economics etc.
2. 2-0-6 posted a VERY insightful thread regarding the Black Panthers. The panthers were
NOT trying to establish an all black state (how could they when they had non-black members) and were COMMUNITY CENTERED/BASED.
3. The KKK and Aryan Brotherhood DO advocate taking over the government (in some instances.) However, these groups do NOT have the manpower or influence to pull something like this off. In fact NONE of the groups you mentioned do.
So, before you attribute my position to fear LEARN/RESEARCH the groups you have listed. :dead:
And before you say "but Migg those ethic groups aren't growing unlike the Latinos". To that I'll say that white folks greatly outnumber everyone else. If they weren't able to pull it off, why will Mexican Americans?
1. You don't have UNITY amongst the white race like you do the Latin race.
2. You do not have the AGENDA that is PROPERLY mapped out and IMPLEMENTED like the AZTLAN movement.
3. These groups do not have the FUNDING for it.
4. It is estimated that whites will be the minority by 2010 (four years from now.) What is too stop mexicans/latinoes from NOT accepting or promoting a nationwide brown pride movement catering to latinos? NOTHING!!! Why? Because they have the NUMBERS, the have the FINANCING, and they are entrenched in the ECONOMY.
And you know better than that to ask such a question.
Europeans invaded the Americas, a continent which was already populated.
Unless they kill off the natives (as has been the case in El Salvador and many other South American countries), the natives will always live among them.
And, they did the same to afrikans, only they shipped them thousands of miles away from home to work the fields they kicked the natives from. Talk about exploitation and capitalism. So the continent was populated....you have two choices. You can wait for them to give the land back or you can fight for it. Which one seems to be a reality?
Your previous response suggests you are treating this like ancient history. The 49ers and Cowboys weren’t able to kick out or kill off every Mexican remaining in sight. Many Mexicans stayed behind after the US/Mexico war, some even fought back (i.e. Joaquin Murrieta). And even if somehow early Americans were able to kick them all out. What part of putting a border in someone else’s land (whether the natives defend themselves or not), do you not understand?
To YOU my previous response implied that. This response has FAILED to answer my question. If the people LOST the land via war the ONLY way you can reclaim the land is if they GIVE you back the land (like Israel is currently doing) OR the people try to take the land back by FORCE/NUMBERS. This is not FEAR and this is not PARANOIA.
This is FACT that is backed by HISTORY. If you LOST the land, sign a shitload of contracts saying you lost it etc do you know what that means? It means the land is
no longer yours.
I don’t see my Spanish blood, I only feel my indigenous rage over what happened many years ago….But let me address your question….
Again, your fear has you thinking that some Mexican rebels are going to cease control of this nation and claim it as theirs. That’s never going to happen because as I already said, these cats are in the minority and most of us don’t share their ideals to begin with. Nothing’s going to happen to anyone, what you’ll simply see is that we’ll be the majority.
And hopefully, those same numbers will reflect in our elected officials.
How is Amerikkka going to let this slide? They can’t do anything about it unless they start putting us in concentration camps. Again, you’re seeing this as some hostile take over. Which is very far from the truth. You’re simply going to see a shift in ethnic numbers, that’s all.
Simply going to see a shift in ethnic numbers? LMAO! You will see a shift in AGENDA. You will see a shift in RIGHTS. You will see a shift in goods & services offered. You will see a shift in LAWS. When one group becomes larger, the smaller group is usually oppressed or forced out (if they are not assimilated.)
My POSITION/VIEW/ASSESSMENT does NOT have me thinking anyone is going to take over this country. What I am saying is the population IS growing, the latin/mexican influence IS rising, and the latins/mexicans will be the majority in this nation. These obvious truths DO pave the way for a MASS MOVEMENT. Whether they can pull it off or not is not the question. The question is WILL they TRY to do it. Can they galvanize the support. the answer is a simple yes and the 500k to 1 million protestors PROVE this.
They can't do anything about it unless they start putting us in concentration camps? Ok, now it seems like you are catching on. Given the current circumstances is it too far-fetched to ponder the possible scenario:
Population boom in america, civil strife amongst the population and the government cause a tear between the country. As, the country is trying to solve the problem, curb the violence, ease the tensions etc the country is hit with MASSIVE nuke attacks.
Is this scenario far fetched?
You don’t really believe that do you? As I stated earlier, America’s best, our boys in the armed forces are having a tough time sealing the Syrian/Iraqi border. Which is a lot smaller than the Southern border.
I don’t know what makes people think a beefed up national guard will do any better….
It most likely won't be a beefed up national guard. It will be a beefed up national guard that has a shitload of crazy, trigger happy, patriotic white men helping out. Want to know why the Syrian/Iraqi border is a problem? Because of
WARFARE. Weapons are involved. How many illegal immigrants are busting back with straps and using bombs? You are comparing APPLES to ORANGES.
We’re going to skin you all alive and then make some nice “carnitas” tacos out of you.
Shit, it my allow some people to live forever. Go for it!
No seriously, we’re going to round you all up, throw you in ships, and then send the Asians to Africa and the black folks to Asia, just for kicks hahaha….
the funny thing about this is some of the people who are serious about the movement actually endorse this.
You have every right to protect your family my friend….
Agreed.
