The Immigration Laws

saladbowlking · Apr 3, 2006

^^THEY USE DIFFERENT SOCIALS YOU DUM FUK THEYRE ILLEGALLS REMEMBER??? UR PROBABLY BULLSHITTIN, BUT MY PARENTS RAISED TEN KIDS OF THEIR OWN SO I DID REALLY GO THROUGH THAT SHIT UR TALKING ABOUT. AND ONE THING U GOTTA UNDERSTAND IS, JUST CAUSE U GOT MORE OF AN EDUCATION THAN I DO THAT DOESNT MAKE YOU SMARTER.. THATS HOW I GOT A VACATION HOME IN THE PROCESS I MADE A SMART BUSINESS MOVE WHEN I WAS YOUNGER AND BEEN MAKIN MORE EVER SINCE... SO LETS STOP MAKING COMPARISONS BETWEEN UR BASTARD ASS FAMILY AND MY FAMILY... AND YOU NEED TO GET A LITTLE MORE INFO ABOUT WHO WAS PROTESTING SHIT FOR BRAINS, IT WASNT THE ILLEGALS.

HERESY · Apr 3, 2006

You have just backed yourself in a corner dummy.

So now you are saying the majority of illegal immigrants are commiting acts of fraud by using stolen/different social security numbers? You openly endorse fraud? You want fraud to continue here in america? Most illegal immigranst are paid in CASH you idiot. Those who do commit acts of fraud (which you endorse) STILL DON'T MAKE ENOUGH MONEY TO BE TAXED LIKE THOSE WHO DO MAKE ENOUGH MONEY TO BE TAXED!!!! Do you understand this?

Why the FUCK would I bullshit about something like that? I can see if I came with some "woe is me" story, but I did not. Besides SEVERAL people here KNOW ME OFFLINE. They can tell you.

Watch this people...I want everyone to pay attention to this guy. Salad, can you explain what business move you made (and continue to make) that has allowed you to build a vacation home?

This insult might have been funny if my parents had children out of wedlock (they both were married you idiot, and this proves you don't read or know the true sense of the word "bastard.") Sadly, this is not the case for me. Next time make your insults funny. Now if said your real father was a crippled immigrant who crossed over with your alleged father that might be something to laugh at.

You are a damn idiot. You have had MANY protests going off within the past week and A LOT of the protesters ARE illegal immigrants (from various countries.) Take your own advice, junior.

enserio · Apr 3, 2006

One of the very first posts in this thread said that it seemed this issue came up all of a sudden. Agreed...in a sense. I happen to be one of those people that believes this is the perfect wedge issue that will get peoples mind off of the gargantuan blunder that the US is undertaking in Iraq and Afghanistan.

As far as how bad it really is in Mexico, well, I subscribe to the views of surcaliman. While each of the others who has commented on the conditions in Mexico has meritable views, if it was all peaches and cream or "not as bad as you make it out to be", then we wouldn't have 11 million over here.

Would I do one of the jobs that most immigrants do? Hell no, simple as that. I have an education and am a middle school teacher. My students are 95% mexicans. Over half of my classes walked out. I told them that I was proud that they walked out for something they believed in. I recognize that some of them just wanted a day off of school, but I know that they marched and hoped that they picked up some of the details on the way. Their communities and people have been wronged and what they did was an initiation into political activism. I thank those hateful conservatives for one thing though...possibly giving birth to the next Malcom, Cesar Chavez, Angela Davis, etc, etc.

HERESY · Apr 3, 2006

MYTHS AND HALF-TRUTHS ABOUT ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION

VCT Web Posted 1/17/2000

MYTH: America has lots of room to double the population (The U.S. Census Bureau says that the U.S. population will double this century).

TRUTH: The open spaces one sees from an airplane are not where the 260 million new immigrants and their families will settle. They will settle in the already overcrowded urban areas of the country just like they always have. Much of America's open spaces are occupied by food production for our own people and to sustain tens of millions of people in other countries. Open spaces are also part of our national heritage of parks and wilderness. A U.S. Census spokesman recently said we shouldn't be very crowded even at twice the population because we still will have only about a fourth the density of England. This irresponsible "trick" statement averages our open spaces, much of which is farmland, parks, and otherwise uninhabitable land, into the equation. In the sections of the country where most Americans live, we are already very much as crowded as are Europeans. And do we want to live like Europeans who centuries ago destroyed most of their wild areas.

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MYTH: Americans won't do the work that illegals do.

TRUTH: Prior to 1965 when the disastrous Immigration Bill was passed, there was very little immigration. In fact, between 1925 and 1965, there was even a period of net emigration out of the United States. During this time, our grass was getting cut, our meat was being packed, our children were being watched and our houses were being cleaned. The idea that somehow we suddenly can't run a country without an unlimited supply of foreigners is absurd.

Those in favor of foreign labor are corporations who are addicted to cheap labor. They are the ones who are benefiting. But their benefit comes at the American tax payer's expense when you consider that the American tax payer is virtually subsidizing the labor costs of the greedy corporations by supplying the illegal foreign workers and their families with welfare, free education, free medical, WICs, housing assistance, etc. -- something the corporations won't do.

Americans won't allow themselves to be exploited like illegals do, but they WILL do the work that illegals do for fair compensation and benefits. If Americans did the work that illegals do at higher pay, would that benefit the consumer? You bet it would in the long run. But many Americans who do not care about America's future are consumers who favor the idea of exploiting illegal workers because it keeps commodity and service prices down in the short term.

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HALF TRUTH: illegals eventually become assimilated Americans.

TRUTH: Many do. But Most third world illegals come to the U.S. for personal economic reasons. Most do not come to cherish our democratic system. Many so called "immigration rights" groups "fan the fire" with their rhetoric which encourages immigrants to preserve their culture and language at tax payers expense. Among some of these groups, the word "assimilation" is considered xenophobic. When ultimately illegal immigrants and/or their children do become voting citizens, many vote in blocks (Mexican-American, El Salvadoran-American, Guatemalan-American, etc.), not for the good of America, but for personal economic gain usually at the expense of another group.

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HALF TRUTH: Illegal aliens are better off in the U.S. doing lousy menial jobs than they are in their own country.

TRUTH: That may be true for the Illegal aliens in the short run (and businesses that hire them), but for many "undocumented immigrants" (Mexicans make up the majority), the "American legacy of exploitation of immigrants" remains in the minds of their children for many generations to come creating resentment of America and hinders assimilation of even their American born offspring. Resentment of America has created anti-American organizations such as MECHA whose nationwide college and high school members must pledge their support to forcefully take back what they call "Aztlan," the U.S. Southwest ceded in 1846 to the U.S. in the Mexican War.

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HALF TRUTH: Illegal aliens pay taxes that benefit the economy.

TRUTH: Most illegal aliens do not receive a typical paycheck with tax deductions -- they are paid in cash and do not pay taxes. Even when they do pay taxes (only possible if they use fraudulent social security numbers or government assigned ID tax numbers), their meager income is not enough to pay for medical expenses and all the expenses for all the children they give birth to. You don't have to look at statistics -- just visit the maternal ward at the L.A. county hospital. There, illegal immigrant women are having thousands of children per year free of charge and can't afford them once they give birth, and that doesn't stop them from having even more children -- most learn how to work the system so that they receive cash assistance and food stamps.

A basic principle in economics is this: The more people that assimilate into the system the better -- if it creates a larger tax base. But here in California it hasn't. For example, the feds had to bail out the L.A. County hospital system several years ago and the county hospitals are now again headed for another crisis. The evidence shows that the net results are that illegal immigrants cost the taxpayer significantly more than they pay in taxes.

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HALF TRUTH: Illegal aliens have a good work ethics.

TRUTH: It depends on what one means by "work ethic." If it means that illegals will allow themselves to be exploited, then they have a good work ethic. If it means that a group of day laborers would be consciences in the assembly of precision built automobiles, it might get an argument. But it is irrelevant if an illegal alien has a good work ethic -- they are working illegally!

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MYTH: Illegal aliens don't affect politics because they can't vote.

TRUTH: Just by being counted in the census, illegals give political power to special groups. Many illegals fraudulently vote anyway and there is strong evidence that some key elections have been upset by illegal voters. Politicians represent the "people" even if those people are illegal aliens. Since the number of representatives in congress is fixed, any increase in population in California, for example, due to illegal immigration will require more representation for that group while taking away representation from people in other states. Most politicians that represent areas of large illegal population, vote in the interest of illegal aliens since they are the ones they represent. On the state level, it is clear that politicians like Governor Davis, California Speaker of the House Antonio Villaraigosa, California Senator Hilda Solis, California Assemblyman Gilbert A. Cedillo, etc., all want laws changed in the interest of illegal aliens.

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MYTH: illegals go to illegal unlicensed medical clinics run by unlicensed quacks because they have no other alternative and because they are afraid of being deported.

TRUTH: Illegals know that they won't be deported simply for seeking medical help -- thousands go for free medical help every day. Obviously, the thousands of illegals who give birth in our county hospitals do not seem to be worried about deportation after their free delivery. The real reason many unsophisticated Hispanic illegals don't go to "free" medical facilities is because they actually trust "curanderos" ( type of witch doctors popular in Mexico) over licensed medical doctors.

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HALF TRUTH: Illegals come to the U.S. for jobs to support their families, and wives and kids in there homeland.

TRUTH: Many do. But record numbers of those wives and kids are sneaking over the border to join their breadwinner in the U.S. But most alarming, is the record numbers of dead-beat dads that find an easy escape from their responsibilities in their homeland and in fact abandon their families. There is also strong empirical evidence that even illegal aliens who had good jobs in their homeland still want to be in the U.S. -- most of the world's people want to come to the U.S. because it is a very good place to be for many more reasons than just for a job.

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MYTH: Pete Wilson's attitude towards illegal aliens stifled trade with Mexico. Governor Davis will change that.

TRUTH: Trade from California to Mexico increased 84.5 percent between 1992 and 1997 and did more trading with Mexico than any other state including Texas - all during the central years of the Wilson administration.

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MYTH: Proposition 187 is unconstitutional because governor Davis says so.

TRUTH: Maybe 187 is unconstitutional. But it is not for the governor of California to decide that. That decision must come from the U.S. supreme court. Davis has preempted the supreme court and snubbed his nose at the voters of California by deciding on his own that 187 is unconstitutional -- contradicting a statement he made to the voters "I'm a governor, not a judge."

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MYTH: The cost of not educating undocumented children is higher than the cost of educating them.

TRUTH: This kind of statement is absurd. It assumes that disallowing illegal alien children into our schools and/or deporting them is not an option. The idea that undocumented children are being punished for the bad deeds of their parents is ludicrous. Undocumented children already have citizenship in another country that is responsible for their education. California schools have a "don't ask, don't tell" policy regarding who gets to go to school. This policy is a powerful magnet that attracts illegals to California. The costs are enormous. Undocumented children are being rewarded, not punished.

Few disagrees that if the current rate of illegal immigration continues, a school a day will have to be built to accommodate the undocumented children and citizen children of undocumented parents.

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MYTH: Record public school enrollment on a national level of 17.5 percent from 1983 to 1997, is a result of Baby Boomers.

TRUTH: Current Population Surveys (such as reported in the January 1999 Backgrounder) shows that 15.9 percent of the school-age population growth in 1997 had immigrant mothers. In California, officials say a new school each day -- or a new classroom an hour -- is needed to keep up with the growth (Since immigrants are just as likely (even more likely) than natives to go to public school, it's clear that nearly all the increase in public school enrollment over the past 15 years is due to federal immigration policy, not the Baby Boom generation.

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MYTH: Issuing California driver's licenses to illegal aliens will make our roads safer because they would be trained to drive safely and would have insurance.

TRUTH: Giving illegal aliens driver's licenses will only make enforcement of our immigrant laws more difficult -- it would make it harder to detect them. It also "throws in the towel" and sends the wrong message to illegal aliens that they can change the law by breaking the law. Society must assume that anyone who would break the law and drive without a license, would continue to break driving and other laws even if they were licensed and most would not be any safer drivers. Moreover, it is laughable to think that these illegal aliens are going to run out and buy car insurance (one of more profitable documents now being sold to illegals, are fraudulent "proof of insurance" documents).

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MYTH: Lack of academic achievement and high school dropout rates are caused by the poor economic conditions of immigrants.

TRUTH: This belief is another one of those "just accept this as truth" cliches." Poverty in itself does not cause school dropouts. This was proven in a report in Scientific American magazine (Indochinese Refugee Families and Academic Achievement, February, 1992). The article showed that many refugees from Southeast Asia with large families arrived in the U.S. with little more than the clothes on their backs and with no exposure to Western culture or knowledge of the English language. Yet their children display stunning scholastic achievement in American schools. In the U.S., the effect of poverty on education has been focused mainly on two ethnic groups, Black and Hispanics. Ironically, these groups have the most representation by their "leaders" who's livings depend on bringing high visibility to the children's penurious conditions -- instead of emphasis on the hard work it takes to succeed in academics.

But for the sake of argument, if poverty of immigrants is the cause of their lack of academic acheivement, why would the U.S. want to import poverty.

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MYTH: Since illegal alien farm workers come to the U.S. for "jobs Americans won't take," they would not present a problem if they were given temporary visas to allow them to work the fields and then return to Mexico (or other country).

TRUTH: Millions of illegal alien workers who could be doing all the farm work that "Americans won't do" are already in the U.S. Almost all illegals who come to work the fields do not make a career of low paying, hard working farm jobs. The belief that only pitiful third world laborers can be content in doing menial farm work is obviated when it is seen that almost all of these workers sooner or later "head for the city" for the better jobs.

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HALF TRUTH: Illegals are enjoying the fruit of the recent great American robust economy.

TRUTH: While many Americans are benefiting from a robust economy, government data shows that record numbers of Americans are falling into poverty in spite of overall good economic conditions -- and in spite of 35 years of record government spending on social programs. This down slide can be directly linked to illegals flooding the low scale job market -- virtually importing poverty faster than it can be irradiated. Had there not been any massive illegal immigration in the past 20 years, poverty in much of America may well have been reduced significantly.

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MYTH: Employers are solely responsible for illegal immigration because they attract illegals by providing low paying jobs.

TRUTH: Illegals are directly responsible for their illegal presence. Blaming the entire problem on employers for illegal immigration is like blaming a women for her own rape because she dressed to sexy and the rapist couldn't resist her.

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HALF TRUTH: Hispanic immigrants are family oriented and very religious catholics.

TRUTH: The vast majority of illegal entries from across our southern border are unsophisticated, poor, and uneducated, who do not necessarily hold to strong family values or the Catholic faith. This is evident by U.S. statistics showing that while unwed teenage pregnancy in the U.S. is decreasing as a whole, Latina unwed teenage pregnancy is on the rise. The illegal immigrants of today are not all the honest, hard working, American dream seekers. This is evident by record numbers of dead-beat dads who walk away from their responsibilities to their children by leaving their homeland and simply crossing the border.

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MYTH: If the U.S. pumps money into Mexico and other third world countries for the purpose of improving their economies, it will create jobs thus eliminating the need to illegally immigrate to the U.S.

TRUTH: The only way that the improvement of other countries' economies would appreciably stop illegal immigration to the U.S., is if those countries' economies were to become as strong as that of the U.S. Thousands of visa over stayers from non-third world countries like Canada, France, Israel, are also part of the illegal immigration problem and those countries have good economies. The U.S. is not the only country to which illegal immigrants seek to immigrate. Countries all over the world are experiencing illegal immigration driven by "wanting a better life." As soon as Third World countries become even only a little bit more prosperous than their neighbors, they rush to keep strangers out. Mexico, for example, does not tolerate its border violations by Guatemalans. Malaysia recently announced that in the case of repeat offenders, it will flog illegal aliens, their employers, and anyone who smuggles them into the country. In early January, 2000, over 35,000 illegal Zimbabwean workers were tossed out Of South Africa. So forget it! The U.S. should be concerned with improving its own economy and strictly enforcing its immigration laws.

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HALF TRUTH: Immigrants make good entrepreneurs.

TRUTH: The common belief that immigrants are natural entrepreneurs may have its roots in the observation of the thousands of illegal alien third world style illegal street venders now found in most large U.S. cities. This belief has been obviated by a wall street article in which recent data shows that native born Americans are more likely to be successful entrepreneurs. (Immigrant Entrepreneurs Slide From Their Top Spot, The Wall Street Journal, January 12, 1999).

Mr. Nice Guy · Apr 3, 2006

saladbowlking said:

Interesting answer to the question posed. Rather than just replying with half assed insults why don't you attempt to answer the question at hand? If I wanted to get into an insulting competition I would have just posted something negative about the hyphy movement in BART, but I was merely attempting to carry on a discussion.

First of all, lets look at who is supporting these changes in immigration laws. Besides the people protesting in the street, it is big US corporations. Do large US corporations usually have the best interest of the "little guy" and social responsility in mind when they support issues, or are they usually concerned with the bottom line. The reason many big businesses are lobbying these issues in Washington DC is because it is what is best FOR THEM. These changes might be beneficial to the individual immigrant in the SHORT TERM, in the long run they are just perpetuating their cycle of being exploited by big US corporations at the expense of the lower class legal US citizens (who haven't seen minimum wage increases to offset inflation in years) largely as a result of these illegal immigrants and their affect on the US economy.

Right now there are two countries that both have problems that need addressing. Rather than attempting to change the US for a short term benefit, the question that remains is why aren't these people changing THEIR OWN COUNTRIES for sustained long term benefits for themselves and a reduction of negative benefits for the people whose countries they are coming to?

enserio · Apr 3, 2006

^^^Way to go on the info. Yet, its still mostly opinion and very little actual truth. No numbers or anything of the sort, just some opinions that seem very logical upon a casual read. You cut and pasted it from the VCT website I assume, the same Voices of Citizens Together, a coincidentally all-white group that came out in support of 187. Gee, lemme see, which way would their opinionsd be slanted?

EDIT: This is not actually for the comment before mine by Mr Nice guy, but the post above it.

HERESY · Apr 3, 2006

Mr. Nice Guy said:

Stick a fork in it. This thread is done.

@SoBerious you said:

Yet, you provide nothing to counter it.

It is obvious that your reading/comprehension skills are not up to par:

In fact, between 1925 and 1965, there was even a period of net emigration out of the United States.

Trade from California to Mexico increased 84.5 percent between 1992 and 1997 and did more trading with Mexico than any other state including Texas

Poverty in itself does not cause school dropouts. This was proven in a report in Scientific American magazine (Indochinese Refugee Families and Academic Achievement, February, 1992).

Current Population Surveys (such as reported in the January 1999 Backgrounder) shows that 15.9 percent of the school-age population growth in 1997 had immigrant mothers.

This belief has been obviated by a wall street article in which recent data shows that native born Americans are more likely to be successful entrepreneurs. (Immigrant Entrepreneurs Slide From Their Top Spot, The Wall Street Journal, January 12, 1999).

I just murdered your "no numbers" statement, and if you want more numbers go to the thread that EDJ has failed to give his next reply to. This country has 40% of its citizens at or below the poverty level. Why should thsi country accept more illegal immigrants?

Wrong. I got it from www.freerepublic.com. Next time ask before you assume.

If it were all white so what? You have all latino nationals saying to kill all whites, blacks and to reclaim the west and southern states as territories of mexico. These people are SPEARHEADING the campaign, yet I don't see YOU mentioning how racist they are. :dead:

Besides, if you want to play a numbers game I can cite sources that endorse the numbers and beliefs shown above and it won't come from "white" people. However, before I do so why don't you toss up some counters and disadvantages of your own.

Gee, lemme see, which way are the mexican nationals opinion slanted?

HERESY · Apr 3, 2006

Description of Red Herring
A Red Herring is a fallacy in which an irrelevant topic is presented in order to divert attention from the original issue. The basic idea is to "win" an argument by leading attention away from the argument and to another topic. This sort of "reasoning" has the following form:

Topic A is under discussion.
Topic B is introduced under the guise of being relevant to topic A (when topic B is actually not relevant to topic A).
Topic A is abandoned.

This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because merely changing the topic of discussion hardly counts as an argument against a claim.

OR

Description of Ad Hominem
Translated from Latin to English, "Ad Hominem" means "against the man" or "against the person."

An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument. Typically, this fallacy involves two steps. First, an attack against the character of person making the claim, her circumstances, or her actions is made (or the character, circumstances, or actions of the person reporting the claim). Second, this attack is taken to be evidence against the claim or argument the person in question is making (or presenting). This type of "argument" has the following form:

Person A makes claim X.
Person B makes an attack on person A.
Therefore A's claim is false.
The reason why an Ad Hominem (of any kind) is a fallacy is that the character, circumstances, or actions of a person do not (in most cases) have a bearing on the truth or falsity of the claim being made (or the quality of the argument being made).

SoBerious, take your pick. You obviously have NO leg to stand on. :dead:

EDJ · Apr 3, 2006

^I HAVEN'T FAILED TO DO SHIT. QUIT TRYIN' TO PUT ME IN YOUR MIX OF REBUTTALS. I HAVEN'T ANSWERED YOU COMPLETELY. I WILL gET TO IT WHEN I DO. BUT IF YOU WANT AN ANSWER TO WHY SHOULD AMERIKKA ACCEPT MORE IMMIgRANTS WHEN 40% OF THE POPULATION IS AT OR BELOW POVERTY LEVEL IS:

THEY HAVE BEEN DOIN' IT, THIS NATION IS BUILT ON IT, AND CLOSIN' BORDERS AND MAKIN' MORE RACIST LAWS AIN'T gONNA DO SHIT BUT HIgHTEN TENSIONS BETWEEN MINORITIES. MAYBE THE ECONOMY IS FUCCED ALREADY, SO WHY DOES IT EVEN MATTER? IF THE U.S WAS THAT CONCERNED ABOUT THE ECONOMIC STAgE OF IT'S CITIZENS, IT WOULD MAKE MEXICO A COMMONWEALTH.

AND THE CUT AND PASTE SHIT YOU POSTED FROM FREEPUBLIC IS A BUNCH OF PARANOID PROPAgANDA FROM THEY PERSPECTIVE(WHICH SOBERIOUS IDENTIFIED AS OPINION). THE THANg IS THAT THAT OPINION IS HALF-BASED ON PARANOIA.

HERESY · Apr 3, 2006

It has been over 24 hours, and I am waiting for you to reply so I can continue to effectively destroy your position. I already have the first reply waiting but chose to sit on it so you wouldn't be hampered. No one is trying to put you in a mix of rebuttals I AM putting you in the mix by directing him to another thread. Deal with it.

And I said I would WAIT to reply (out of courtesy to you.)

What the hell do you think letting more illegals in will do? You think everything will become some damn fiesta or kwanzaa celebration? You think everyone is going to hold hands and sing "we shall overcome?" Allowing 3 million plus ILLEGAL citizens in this country (per year) is only going to create MORE strife and tension. This nation is NOT built on allowing 3 million plus illegals into the country. It was doing fine without it and even Chavez was against it.

It is not a maybe. The economy IS fucked and will be even more fucked up with 3 million ILLEGAL immigrants coming each year.

Why does it matter? LMAO! If the economy is of no concern why is the well being of illegals of any concern? You have a warped sense of logic and reality when it comes to this issue. What you are basically supporting is the destruction of the economy, but the well being of illegal immigrants. Do you realize how RETARDED this is? If the economy fails EVERYONE will feel it.

More foolishness on your part. Please explain to the board how the united states can make mexico a commonwealth. Please provide a solvency and plan of action so we can all sit back and laugh at how foolish it is. If the immigrants were so concerned about themselves they would PROTEST in their own countries instead of protesting HERE.

Your answer to the question (like many of your answers pertaining to this topic) is one of idiocy with roots in emotions such as fear. Truth is you know nothing of this subject, but you simply speak out because you hate the system and because you are mixed. These things mean nothing to me. You have FAILED to provide a logical answer to why america, with its 40% poverty level, should allow 3 million illegal immigrants to enter the country every year. The only thing you have provided is one gigantic run on sentence, filled with drivel and far fetched claims about racism and the way this country is run.

Again, the positions they hold were supported by FACTS and figures. Why don't YOU provide us with facts and figures that disprove those facts and figures? If you cannot do this why are you even speaking on the subject? Soberious did nothing but create an Ad Hominem or Red herring, but seeing as you can't comprehend what they are, it is only natural for you to agree with him. YOUR OPINIONS HAVE ROOTS IN EMOTION. YOUR OPINIONS ARE NOT BACKED BY ANY FACTUAL FINDINGS OR REPORTS. I can list info from a shitload of websites and you'll simply sound like a tired ass broken record:

its propaganda...ereghhhh...its opinion....ereghhhhhh....its racist....ereghhhh...its paranoia....eregehhhhh...its propaganda...ereghhhh...its opinion....ereghhhhhh....its racist....ereghhhh...its paranoia....eregehhhhh...its propaganda...ereghhhh...its opinion....ereghhhhhh....its racist....ereghhhh...its paranoia....eregehhhhh...its propaganda...ereghhhh...its opinion....ereghhhhhh....its racist....ereghhhh...its paranoia....eregehhhhh...its propaganda...ereghhhh...its opinion....ereghhhhhh....its racist....ereghhhh...its paranoia....eregehhhhh...its propaganda...ereghhhh...its opinion....ereghhhhhh....its racist....ereghhhh...its paranoia....eregehhhhh...its propaganda...ereghhhh...its opinion....ereghhhhhh....its racist....ereghhhh...its paranoia....eregehhhhh...its propaganda...ereghhhh...its opinion....ereghhhhhh....its racist....ereghhhh...its paranoia....eregehhhhh...its propaganda...ereghhhh...its opinion....ereghhhhhh....its racist....ereghhhh...its paranoia....eregehhhhh...its propaganda...ereghhhh...its opinion....ereghhhhhh....its racist....ereghhhh...its paranoia....eregehhhhh...its propaganda...ereghhhh...its opinion....ereghhhhhh....its racist....ereghhhh...its paranoia....eregehhhhh...its propaganda...ereghhhh...its opinion....ereghhhhhh....its racist....ereghhhh...its paranoia....eregehhhhh...its propaganda...ereghhhh...its opinion....ereghhhhhh....its racist....ereghhhh...its paranoia....eregehhhhh...its propaganda...ereghhhh...its opinion....ereghhhhhh....its racist....ereghhhh...its paranoia....eregehhhhh...its propaganda...ereghhhh...its opinion....ereghhhhhh....its racist....ereghhhh...its paranoia....eregehhhhh...its propaganda...ereghhhh...its opinion....ereghhhhhh....its racist....ereghhhh...its paranoia....eregehhhhh...its propaganda...ereghhhh...its opinion....ereghhhhhh....its racist....ereghhhh...its paranoia....eregehhhhh...its propaganda...ereghhhh...its opinion....ereghhhhhh....its racist....ereghhhh...its paranoia....eregehhhhh...its propaganda...ereghhhh...its opinion....ereghhhhhh....its racist....ereghhhh...its paranoia....eregehhhhh...its propaganda...ereghhhh...its opinion....ereghhhhhh....its racist....ereghhhh...its paranoia....eregehhhhh...its propaganda...ereghhhh...its opinion....ereghhhhhh....its racist....ereghhhh...its paranoia....eregehhhhh...its propaganda...ereghhhh...its opinion....ereghhhhhh....its racist....ereghhhh...its paranoia....eregehhhhh...its propaganda...ereghhhh...its opinion....ereghhhhhh....its racist....ereghhhh...its paranoia....eregehhhhh...its propaganda...ereghhhh...its opinion....ereghhhhhh....its racist....ereghhhh...its paranoia....eregehhhhh...its propaganda...ereghhhh...its opinion....ereghhhhhh....its racist....ereghhhh...its paranoia....eregehhhhh...its propaganda...ereghhhh...its opinion....ereghhhhhh....its racist....ereghhhh...its paranoia....eregehhhhh...its propaganda...ereghhhh...its opinion....ereghhhhhh....its racist....ereghhhh...its paranoia....eregehhhhh...its propaganda...ereghhhh...its opinion....ereghhhhhh....its racist....ereghhhh...its paranoia....eregehhhhh...its propaganda...ereghhhh...its opinion....ereghhhhhh....its racist....ereghhhh...its paranoia....eregehhhhh...its propaganda...ereghhhh...its opinion....ereghhhhhh....its racist....ereghhhh...its paranoia....eregehhhhh...its propaganda...ereghhhh...its opinion....ereghhhhhh....its racist....ereghhhh...its paranoia....eregehhhhh...its propaganda...ereghhhh...its opinion....ereghhhhhh....its racist....ereghhhh...its paranoia....eregehhhhh...its propaganda...ereghhhh...its opinion....ereghhhhhh....its racist....ereghhhh...its paranoia....eregehhhhh...its propaganda...ereghhhh...its opinion....ereghhhhhh....its racist....ereghhhh...its paranoia....eregehhhhh...its propaganda...ereghhhh...its opinion....ereghhhhhh....its racist....ereghhhh...its paranoia....eregehhhhh...its propaganda...ereghhhh...its opinion....ereghhhhhh....its racist....ereghhhh...its paranoia....eregehhhhh...its propaganda...ereghhhh...its opinion....ereghhhhhh....its racist....ereghhhh...its paranoia....eregehhhhh...its propaganda...ereghhhh...its opinion....ereghhhhhh....its racist....ereghhhh...its paranoia....eregehhhhh...its propaganda...ereghhhh...its opinion....ereghhhhhh....its racist....ereghhhh...its paranoia....eregehhhhh...its propaganda...ereghhhh...its opinion....ereghhhhhh....its racist....ereghhhh...its paranoia....eregehhhhh...its propaganda...ereghhhh...its opinion....ereghhhhhh....its racist....ereghhhh...its paranoia....eregehhhhh...its propaganda...ereghhhh...its opinion....ereghhhhhh....its racist....ereghhhh...its paranoia....eregehhhhh...its propaganda...ereghhhh...its opinion....ereghhhhhh....its racist....ereghhhh...its paranoia....eregehhhhh...its propaganda...ereghhhh...its opinion....ereghhhhhh....its racist....ereghhhh...its paranoia....eregehhhhh...
its propaganda...ereghhhh...its opinion....ereghhhhhh....its racist....ereghhhh...its paranoia....eregehhhhh...its propaganda...ereghhhh...its opinion....ereghhhhhh....its racist....ereghhhh...its paranoia....eregehhhhh...its propaganda...ereghhhh...its opinion....ereghhhhhh....its racist....ereghhhh...its paranoia....eregehhhhh...its propaganda...ereghhhh...its opinion....ereghhhhhh....its racist....ereghhhh...its paranoia....eregehhhhh...its propaganda...ereghhhh...its opinion....ereghhhhhh....its racist....ereghhhh...its paranoia....eregehhhhh...its propaganda...ereghhhh...its opinion....ereghhhhhh....its racist....ereghhhh...its paranoia....eregehhhhh...its propaganda...ereghhhh...its opinion....ereghhhhhh....its racist....ereghhhh...its paranoia....eregehhhhh...its propaganda...ereghhhh...its opinion....ereghhhhhh....its racist....ereghhhh...its paranoia....eregehhhhh...its propaganda...ereghhhh...its opinion....ereghhhhhh....its racist....ereghhhh...its paranoia....eregehhhhh...its propaganda...ereghhhh...its opinion....ereghhhhhh....its racist....ereghhhh...its paranoia....eregehhhhh...its propaganda...ereghhhh...its opinion....ereghhhhhh....its racist....ereghhhh...its paranoia....eregehhhhh...

Sadly, this is the CORE of your position. :dead:

EDJ · Apr 3, 2006

^CLEAR YOUR PM MY NIgK, I DON'T WANT TO SPEAK UP ON THIS SHIT, CAUSE YEAH, IT'S FILLED WITH EMOTIONS CAUSE I AM THE ONE THEY OPPRESS. JUST LIKE YOU. BUT THIS ONE IN PARTICULAR I WILL DEMYTH:

HALF TRUTH: Illegal aliens pay taxes that benefit the economy.

TRUTH: Most illegal aliens do not receive a typical paycheck with tax deductions -- they are paid in cash and do not pay taxes. Even when they do pay taxes (only possible if they use fraudulent social security numbers or government assigned ID tax numbers), their meager income is not enough to pay for medical expenses and all the expenses for all the children they give birth to."

DO YOU SEE THE gENERALIZATION HERE? DO YOU SEE THE CONSTANT CHANgE UP? FIRST THEY gET PAID UNDER THE TABLE. THEN IT'S FRAUDULENT SSN. AND IF THEY DO, IT'S NOT ENOUgH CAUSE THEY MAKE SO MANY BABIES. WHAT THE FUK CUZZ? THEY STRINgIN' YOU ALONg WITH THEY FACTS AND PARANOIA. WHY DON'T THEY TALK ABOUT HOW MANY DO PAY TAXES AND NEVA RECEIVED A TAX RETURN? OR THE WAY THEY SPENDIN' DOLLARS UPLIFTED COMMUNITIES?

AND MY CORE OF MY POSITION AIN'T THAT. CLEAR YOUR PM PLAYA, I gOT NEWS FOR YOU, WHILE YOU SOUNDIN' ALL PRO-AMERIKKKAN, BUT YET AND STILL YOU DAMN THIS COUNTRY AND WANT TO gET THE FUK OUT.

enserio · Apr 3, 2006

This was posted at the top of your loooong ass post that I only took the time to skim because I've seen this tired ass diatribe before:

Naturally, you can see why I assumed this was originally posted or copied onto the VCT website. The exact origins of where it's from are irrelevant, what is important that you apparently liked what you read and then copied and pasted. Have you no thoughts of your own? Or were you simply satisfied with knowing you were ideoligically in-line with these folks and figured you could support each and everything they said? Besides, no one here is really taking the time to debate each and every one of those points when you post two pages of them at once.

Here's an easy assignment. Pick 2 or 3 that are really important (i.e., ones you feel strong enough about to where you can find post your own thoughts) and write about those.

And, you take my "no numbers" statement and murder it by posting six lines that merely contain numbers, and somehow you "murdered" that? Please, son. First, thats 6 lines out of 2 pages worth of type. Second, I could put an algebra problem between every line in my response and then say I have more numbers but that would do no good. And lastly, I am willing to bet real money, that for each statistic from each study you have posted in that rhetoric that isn't yours, I can find numbers and studies that support the opposite from rhetoric that isn't really mine. Sound fun? Nah, not to me either. Thats neither what this thread or section of the forum is about.

Then this post.

HERESY said:

That whole post is a red herring, so let's not waste anymore time on that.

So now you've got your obligatory response that you were looking for. I made some suggestions about sharing some of your own thoughts in your own words. Let's try and stay within the realms of this thread, umkaaaay???

HERESY · Apr 3, 2006

This is a long post:

http://siccness.net/vb/showthread.php?t=180623&page=6

Again, stop assuming.

The exact origins are irrelevant to me but relevant to yourself. You are the one who assumed I got the material from a certain source and then you proceeded to discredit it. Don't switch it up now. If the EXACT origins of where I got it from are irrelevant, you should not have mentioned the group who initially posted the findings and painted them in a negative fashion.

Hit the link at the top of this reply. Do you have any thoughts of your own? I mean besides fallicies?

I can support pretty much all the positions I posted. I posted one page worth of material, and if this were a parlimentary debate (A REAL DEBATE) you would simply loose because you can't answer the stock issues. I am NOT going to shorten ANYTHING or make it easier for you. If you have no contentions leave the board with your pride and dignity intact. If you do have contentions feel free to post them (so I can slaughter you like Jews sacrificing unblemished Lambs.)

Again, refer to the link at the top of the page. If YOU feel so strong about YOUR position stop making Ad Hominem type arguments. And, what the hell do you think this is? Heresy does NOT simply drop arguments just so people like you can get a free break. I have addressed LONG ass threads and posts before, so if you cannot do it get the fuck on. ----->

Again, the numbers posted give firm cred to the information. If you have facts and figures PLEASE POST THEM!!! If you have NO facts and figures why are you replying? Here is your initial statement:

Nevertheless, you said no numbers or anything of the sort and proceed to label it as opinion. When this is obviously disproven you type an excuse as to why you don't accept them. Listen, if you are not going to provide numbers or figures of your own you have NO leg to stand on against these numbers. If you cannot provide a reason to differ you have lost. Those numbers are figures that have been cited from credible sources. Again, if you have a problem with them post your own!

BTW, you putting an algebra problem in the posts have NOTHING to do with the subject UNLESS the numbers were based on some actual figure. The ONLY way I will accept an obscure number/problem is if you presented an analogy.

How the HELL are YOU going to tell ANYONE what this thread or forum is about? LMAO! This is your second or third post here? This thread is about immigration laws. I have posted relevant info pertaining to the subject matter. You have presented NOTHING. ZERO. NADA. NATHAN. This is the gathering of minds forum, and our subject matter varies. If you cannot handle the subject matter here this is not the place for you. I have been a leading contributor to this section for years now, and I will not allow some "johnny come lately" to come here and tell me what this board is about. :dead:

Junior, a red herring would be presenting an irrelevant topic (which is kind of what YOU did.) Truth is I have stayed within the confines of this topic. However, the truth concerning you is you have presented NOTHING relevant to immigration OR immigration laws. By addressing your obviously flawed fallicies I put the spotlight back on you and have shown countless readers how your position is flawed. Listen, and listen well because this may help you in the future. When you are going to argue/debate here make sure you have a firm position. The ONLY thing pertaining to your position that we all know is you are too lazy to do the same jobs as the illegal immigrants and you agree with surcaliman (another mental midget and closet racist.)

Child, do not attempt to confuse our readers by making it seem as if I am straying from the subject. You replied in a snide/condescending fashion, so now you are paying for your obvious crime. I have made posts relevant to the topic and have replied in a harsh manner where the person is well deserving of such a reply. This is the truth and as always it will set you free. The bottom line is you have given us a morbid tale about your remedial students, their inability to grasp reality and your inability to provide adequate services as a teacher and leader of the community. Did you ever tell your students about AZTLAN or MEChA and how they endorse rioting and the killing of black people? Sure you did, Teach! Good job!!!

I will ask you the SAME question no one else has answered.

If this economy already has 40% of its citizens at or BELOW the poverty level how is it going to sustain 3-4 million additional poor people each year?

enserio · Apr 3, 2006

HERESY said:

Irrelevant in comparison to the fact that you post their "findings" instead of thoughts of your own. And, slightly relevant because it let's folks know who you're in-line with. VCT is not some group that can paint themselves as citizens who are concerned solely with the government not properly enforcing immigration laws, they have history of posting hate, period. And, again, those are not "findings", they can easily and have been rebuked. Am I going to find the evidence for you. No. Why? Because you know how the world of political research works, right? Some group comes out with a "finding" to support their political claims and then the opposite camp does the same. I will not take part in that process with you.

I hit the link. It was page six. What exactly are you expecting me to do? Argue with you like those other dudes already did? Okay. And, because you can chop up and reply to my post like I am doing to yours, you are proving my thinking contains fallacies? While you aren't proving that, I will admit my thinking has been known to contain fallacies. And, how you gonna ask me the same question I asked you? Where does that get us? I'm not the one who cuts and pastes from websites.

Good thing this is an internet discussion, then because I can actually see that you cannot spell parliamentary or lose. And, I will leave the board with my pride and dignity intact regardless, get over yourself, champ. I am not asking you to make anything easier, just asking you to be succint and original.

Oh, the usual 3rd person reference. I am dealing with an internet celebrity, I see.

I already spoke to why I wont play the numbers/research studies game with you. You know there is truth to what I say when it comes to studies that support political positions, and just because I won't post numbers of my own doesn't imply defeat. No numbers, you lose! What a strategy. If things were only that easy.

Post count has zero to do with telling you what this thread is about. And I read the rules that 206 posted at the top pf the forum to see what this section of the forum is about. Thanks.

The internet celebrity ego, again. Admittedly, I am a "johnny come lately". Save that 'leading contributor' stuff for your resume.

You wouldn't do those jobs either, and you know it. Your ilk states its a fallacy that Americans won't do those jobs (thus implying that they would), and you paste it to be a "finding". There is zero evidence to support that, and Americans aren't exactly fighting for those jobs. They'd rather sit on their asses, have a couple of babies and collect some welfare.

My reply was a smart ass remark, but it's tone was neither snide, nor condesending. And it's no crime. A simple case of some internet identity getting some hurt feelings because they take this whole thing just a bit too serious. Don't get me wrong, I don't see this section of the forum as a joke, nor do I believe you are an idiot. Taking yourself too seriously on the internet will, however, lead to gargantuan, quasi-logic filled posts and self-references in the third person.

No morbid tale, no remedial students. My school is ranked a 9 out of 10 compared to other schools with the same demographics. We hit our API marks, which is a lot more than most inner-city schools can claim. Why tell my students about Aztlan or make false claims about MEChA? Killing black people? Okay. I'm sure you will provide proof that you will cut and paste from another thinly disguised white pride website.

I can't sufficiently answer that question, but then again, neither does either of the two immigration bills that were introduced. They both contain serious fallacies.

HERESY · Apr 3, 2006

People around here will ask for facts and figures. You CANNOT start posting out your ass because someone will simply ask you to prove your position with facts and figures. Yes I endorse the facts/figures posted, AND I have posted my own opinions (in the link provided.)

I am AGAINST illegal immigration. Posting CREDIBLE info from a source that YOU don't agree with means NOTHING.

And what are the pushers of this new "movement" concerned with? Have you not read the words of AZTLAN or MEChA? They are hate inspired and have OPENLY called for the death of afrikan americans. Yet, I don't see you openly opposing them. No, what you do is give the students a day off, and pat them on the head for following a racist agenda force fed by mexican nationals.

WELL DO IT!!!! IF YOU CAN PROVE THE FINDINGS TO BE FALSE LIST THE INFO!!!

You have already LOST. I am arguing position A,and I have given evidence to support position A. You are arguing position 0 (zero) and have given ZERO evidence to disprove position A. If you are not going to post any credible evidence OR offer an alternative the numbers STAND!!

Basically, you want to turn this place into a mockery of intelligence. How dare you come here and ATTEMPT to argue a position without any info? My info can be researched and disputed. That is the beauty of it. Your info cannot because you have no sources. Do you believe people here are supposed to just take your shit and swallow it because you said it? If you are NOT going to offer your own sources/stats the numbers I posted STAND.

Child, I have been here for over four years now, and the majority of people who have watched me post will tell you a very simple truth. When I post ideas or stats I give the source of where the info originated. I tell people to read and validate. YOU have NOT read and validated the numbers provided. The ONLY thing you have done is ATTACKED the source of the information (thus commiting a fallacy.)

I have destroyed people like you without websites, and I will continue to do so. You are simply another notch in my belt. You are another foolish soul that has fallen to the depths of oblivion. I have ALREADY shown your posts to be full of fallacies, and nothing else needs to be said about them. You have provided no logical reason as to why those numbers and facts are not accurate. The only thing you have done is attacked the source, and this is a fallacy. Why I must explain this to a teacher is beyond me.

Child, if you are going to point out typos make sure you put your commas in the correct place. I used the bold type to remind you of your mistake. :dead:

I am being original, and if you can't get past EVIDENCE you don't need to be here.

Son, I am "H", and H is more than a celeb! H is the TRUTH and the TRUTH will set you free! I will speak to you in this fashion ONLINE or OFFLINE. DEAL WITH IT!

You will NOT find ANYONE on the board who is willing to accept your position. This board OPERATES by people providing info to their claims. If you cannot provide any info to dispute my claims or positions, you need to leave. You are simply wasting bandwidth and contributing to destruction of this forum. Provide info to dispute the claims or leave. It is a very simple choice.

What the hell does it mean? You are basically saying "those numbers are not credible", yet you are NOT providing an ALTERNATIVE! Again, if this were a debate you would have LOST already. You have NOT provided alternate resources, have not presented any solvencies nor have you shown why the numbers and postings I gave should be tossed out in favor of new ones. Child, you have lost, and it pains me to see a teacher being destroyed in this fashion! No...it doesn't. I am an iconoclast, and destroying you so easily make me all warm and fuzzy inside.

First off Junior, I don't know of any words in the dictionary listed as "pf." Second of all, you don't need to tell me SHIT about the topic, for I am on point. You are obviously MISSING the point of this topic and forum. How you ask? By coming in here and attacking positions without any credible info to validate your claim. Look at my posts in this thread and look at yours. If we were to take a public poll the majority would vote in favor of me being on point, and this will never be disputed in this life or the one to come.

Since you are the new kid on the block I have advice for you. Sit down, have a glass of milk...or a nice glass of STFU! If you do not heed my advice,you will be raped and abused far worse than now! BTW, I will save the leading contributor stuff for my resume. I'll also add you to a looooooooong list of DEFEATED foes.

I have already stated I would not work at the rates the illegals work at. If I were in need of a job, I WOULD work at the rates of the LEGAL immigrants (or higher) However, your postings make me ashamed to even consider teaching, and this is the truth.

Where is your evidence to support americans are NOT willing to do those jobs? I can EASILY say they can't do the jobs because they A.) Do not know the job exists and B.) They are turned away because the employer would like to SAVE money by hiring ILLEGALS. You have NO position, and you are the one with ZERO evidence. Give it up, Albert.

You opened the floodgates for any and every reply I give you. If you do not wish to play hardball don't sling mud or attempt to smash on people. You throw stones, and I'll drop boulders on your skull. BTW, learn to spell condescending. I allow room for typos and other errors, but I do not allow room for long ass run on sentences and idiocy (ala saladtossking.)The ONLY reason I am pointing out your typos is because you made it a point to point out mine. Make sure your shit is trump tight before you start throwing those rocks.

Child, why would I have hurt feelings over this? You are a teacher who is being destroyed, and I would LOVE for your students to read this. Their faith in you would falter, they would report you to the board,and you would be fired. YOU do NOT know ME and when I am upset. You do NOT know what makes me upset. Please do NOT make the mistake of confusing articulate and cogent arguments with being hurt. I have a right to post my views (as do you), but my views are simply better than yours. Deal with it.

I don't see this as a joke either. However, I must be honest, I do see YOU as a joke and idiot, and I will continue to see you in this fashion until you prove you are not an idiot.

NO. Taking this too serious would be me stomping your teeth down your throat for even coming at me the way you did. THAT would be too serious. We have long posts, self-references, quasi-logic and tons of other madness in this section of the board. We also have idiots (like you) coming in here trying to dictate and change shit. And do you know what happens to them? They get destroyed! They go to perdition and NEVER return. THIS WILL BE YOUR FATE.

What school district (I don't need the name of the school) is this? Por La Raza todo. Fuera de La Raza nada. Please explain, how this is not racist,and don't go telling the board it is metaphorical. Explain the doctrines and dogma of Reconquista, and after that go into the ANTI-SEMETIC views of MEChA. Are you going to HONESTLY sit here and say these groups have NOT openly spoke about taking back america and ELIMINATING blacks and whites?

Get the fuck out of here. If you cannot answer the question I see no use in this convo. Seriously, you are fucked in the head, johnny. I am asking you (an obvious supporter of illegal immigration) how you expect this country to operate with 3 million ILLEGAL immigrants per year, and what do you do? You present some red herring/strawman hybrid in hopes of sounding remotely intelligent.You may pull this garbage with your students, but you will not do it with me.

YOU ARE SUPPORTING SOMETHING WITHOUT ANY LOGIC AS TO WHY YOU ARE SUPPORTING IT.

EDJ · Apr 4, 2006

^SO MECHA IS NOTHIN' BUT ILLEgALS THAT ARE PREJUDICE? OR ARE THEY CHICANOS(MEXICAN AMERIKKKANS) THAT HAVE BEEN EDUCATED AND WANT TO TAKE BAK THE LAND THAT THE WHITEMAN TOOK BY UNITIN' ALL MEXICANS?

saladbowlking · Apr 4, 2006

MECHA = SUCKAS.

ThizzIzWatItWaz · Apr 4, 2006

let the spics work!

MEXCOM · Apr 4, 2006

HERESY
Didn't you say the United States won't last another ten years in a previous post? Aren't you the one advocating the destruction of the united states? Aren't you the one who has said that the US's economy will collapse one day? Why then are you so worried about the American economy? Are you simply debating for the sake of debating or is there a point; to be honest I don't think your point is "illegals = bad."

Dirty Shoez · Apr 5, 2006

^^ I'm not one for "HAHA!" moments...but...damn. You have a point. 'We're all going down anyways...why not let millions of others share in our humiliating (and imminent) defeat?'

The Immigration Laws

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THE HIDDEN HAND...

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THE HIDDEN HAND...

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