Richard Dawkins (The God Delusion)

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Hutch

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Mar 9, 2005
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ThaG said:
most mutations are neutral
Many mutations are neutral because of the degeneracy of the genetic code and because they often occur in the so-called 'junk' DNA. However, these don't create visible phenotypes and thus they shouldn't be included in any discussion on evolution.

Most mutations are harmful. It's true. For every beneficial mutation, there may be thousands of harmful ones. That's where the 'natural selection' part comes into play. To put it simply - those mutations which are beneficial are selected for, whilst those which are harmful are selected against. Simple as that. By beneficial mutation, we mean one that increases an organisms chance of survival and reproduction. Likewise, by harmful mutation, we mean one that decreases an organisms chance of survival and reproduction.

It doesn't require a scientifically trained mind to draw a conclusion: If an organism has a beneficial mutation, which increases it's chances of survival and reproduction, then this organism will live longer and have more offspring. Based on heredity, these offspring have a good chance of inhereting these beneficial mutations, increasing it's frequency in the population. This beneficial mutation becomes the norm, and provides the template from which other beneficial mutations can spontaneously arise. Thus, organisms keep evolving, continually producing bodies better suited to a specific niche, with nature acting as the fitness judge, jury and executioner.

That's evolution in a nut-shell. Take it or leave it.

I'll leave you with a quote from one Douglas Adams, author of 'The Hitchikers Guide to the Galaxy', descibing his own brush with Darwinism;

"It fell into place. It was a concept of stunning simplicity, but it gave rise, naturally, to all the infinite and baffling complexity of life. The awe it inspired in me made the awe that people talk about in respect of religious experience seem frankly silly beside it. I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day"
 

ThaG

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Hutch said:
Many mutations are neutral because of the degeneracy of the genetic code and because they often occur in the so-called 'junk' DNA. However, these don't create visible phenotypes and thus they shouldn't be included in any discussion on evolution.

Most mutations are harmful. It's true. For every beneficial mutation, there may be thousands of harmful ones. That's where the 'natural selection' part comes into play. To put it simply - those mutations which are beneficial are selected for, whilst those which are harmful are selected against. Simple as that. By beneficial mutation, we mean one that increases an organisms chance of survival and reproduction. Likewise, by harmful mutation, we mean one that decreases an organisms chance of survival and reproduction.
Not trying to bug you, but I would be careful when using the term "junk" DNA because there might be no such thing and sequences we thought of as "junk" are now recognized as functional elements of the genome; introns are full of miRNAs, the genome is transcribed from both strands, more and more long ncRNAs are discovered, etc.

non-coding sequences can evolve much faster than proteins and this might be beneficial:

http://www.nature.com/nature/journa...l;jsessionid=D6516B4A26A747CD54DC6CEEB7B94614
 

Hutch

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Hence the inverted commas around the word 'junk'. Introns are not consider junk DNA because of the prevalence of alternative splicing. However, there is still junk DNA and there always will be some junk DNA - remnants of ancient viral infections and their gene integrations etc. Be happy about this - if we were to prove that there is NO junk DNA, then that would bring the perfection and elegance back into the argument, giving the creationists a very strong foothold.
 

ThaG

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Hutch said:
Hence the inverted commas around the word 'junk'. Introns are not consider junk DNA because of the prevalence of alternative splicing. However, there is still junk DNA and there always will be some junk DNA - remnants of ancient viral infections and their gene integrations etc. Be happy about this - if we were to prove that there is NO junk DNA, then that would bring the perfection and elegance back into the argument, giving the creationists a very strong foothold.
Well, transposons are probably true "junk" DNA...

pseudogenes for sure

but that's as far as it goes, the rest is not "junk" as we thought before (I consider introns "junk" because you don't need to evolve a god damn 50kb "empty" sequence just to do alternative splicing, if you don't have other things in it; in fact, most of the time you have plenty of important stuff there)

BTW "junk" DNA is a very strong proof against creationism as you hinted
 

Hutch

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ThaG said:
I consider introns "junk" because you don't need to evolve a god damn 50kb "empty" sequence just to do alternative splicing, if you don't have other things in it; in fact, most of the time you have plenty of important stuff there
You do mean the gaps between exons, the coding regions of genes don't you? I'm yet to see a 50kb intron, even proof reading polymerases would have a hard time overcoming that distance. The genes I work with contain introns anywhere from 40bp to 500bp, although they can be slightly larger.
 

ThaG

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Hutch said:
You do mean the gaps between exons, the coding regions of genes don't you? I'm yet to see a 50kb intron, even proof reading polymerases would have a hard time overcoming that distance. The genes I work with contain introns anywhere from 40bp to 500bp, although they can be slightly larger.
 

ThaG

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also: the gene for dystrophin is 2Mb, it takes a whole day to transcribe it but obviously it happens because me and you and everybody else are sitting in front of the computer typing
 

Hutch

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Bloody animals, now I know why I chose plants! It seems as though the largest introns are present in disease related genes (hence NRG1), and the record is a 3Mb intron in the Y-linked dynein ß heavy chain genes in Drosophila.

Still, I still wouldn't consider them junk. With such large introns, it would take an extremely long time for the DNA transcription machinery to produce mRNA. These extended introns could act as 'time-delay' buffers, preventing the instantaneous expression of a particular gene and adding to the specificity that promoters impart on a genes expression. Also, Intron size can also affect the balance of alternative splicing through the interplay between transcript elongation rate and splicing kinetics - i.e. the rate at which a gene is spliced may depend strongly on the rate at which the mRNA is produced.

On the flip side, such a large coding region will inevidibly increase the potential for processing errors and may cause the premature termination of transcription. It would also increase the chances that a given gene will be broken during crossover.

Why did God include such long introns in the human genome?
 

ThaG

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the question is not misleading at all

the whole argument from design falls apart when you go molecular and realize how weird and suboptimal the "design" is in reality

the examples are numerous, I immediately recall the ARF-p16INK4a-p15INK4b locus where a single deletion of 100kb can result in loss of half of the cell defense against cancer

Ask God why he made us so susceptible to cancer?
 
Mar 12, 2005
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HAHA, ThaG, you see my sig, it's the reason people cannot have a steady convo(NOT A DEBATE) a steady convo either for explanation or just a basic discussion with you. You either picking straws or constantly digressing from the topic at hand.
 

Cmoke

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rofl. basically you connect the y lateral inverted quadra-sectorial genome structure to the ya.......fuck it. rofl
 
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ThaG said:
I speak on things I am expert in

The Red Sin said:
HAHAHAHAHA YEAH RIGHT!!!!
^LMFAO!! People are just full of themselves sometimes I guess. We have a 22 year old sophomore (Biology major) posing to be some type of authority, Ha! Laughable.. This cat is nothing more than a fraud, a 1-dimensional pseudo-intellectual.. I deal with these types all the time, no multidisciplinary training in the liberal arts or parallel sciences, just coerced robotic drone warriors of Darwinism..
 

ThaG

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The Red Sin said:
HAHA, ThaG, you see my sig, it's the reason people cannot have a steady convo(NOT A DEBATE) a steady convo either for explanation or just a basic discussion with you. You either picking straws or constantly digressing from the topic at hand.
how is this post digressing from the topic:

the question is not misleading at all

the whole argument from design falls apart when you go molecular and realize how weird and suboptimal the "design" is in reality

the examples are numerous, I immediately recall the ARF-p16INK4a-p15INK4b locus where a single deletion of 100kb can result in loss of half of the cell defense against cancer

Ask God why he made us so susceptible to cancer?
if we're going to debate, we have to do it with evidence and data, not with empty statements

but when I give you the evidence, it is digressing....
 

ThaG

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ParkBoyz said:
^LMFAO!! People are just full of themselves sometimes I guess. We have a 22 year old sophomore (Biology major) posing to be some type of authority, Ha! Laughable.. This cat is nothing more than a fraud, a 1-dimensional pseudo-intellectual.. I deal with these types all the time, no multidisciplinary training in the liberal arts or parallel sciences, just coerced robotic drone warriors of Darwinism..
LMAO

How did you decide I'm a sophomore? Because I'm not, obvioudly you can't even read...

As far as being an authority: the only people here who seem to have some expertise in biology are me and Hutch

So I am an authority for you here, because your knowledge about biology is infinitessimally smaller than mine.

Moreover, I don't know why you think degrees or which year you are in college really matter; there are many people with PhDs in biology who know little about it and people who are young and don't have the degree but know more than most graduate students and doctors...

It all depends on how early you started studying the subject...
 

ThaG

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May 12, 2007
How dare you call me a fundamentalist
The right to criticise ‘faith-heads’
Richard Dawkins

The hardback God Delusion was hailed as the surprise bestseller of 2006. While it was warmly received by most of the 1,000-plus individuals who volunteered personal reviews to Amazon, paid print reviewers gave less uniform approval. Cynics might invoke unimaginative literary editors: it has “God” in the title, so send it to a known faith-head. That would be too cynical, however. Several critics began with the ominous phrase, “I’m an atheist, BUT . . .” So here is my brief rebuttal to criticisms originating from this “belief in belief” school.

I’m an atheist, but I wish to dissociate myself from your shrill, strident, intemperate, intolerant, ranting language.

Objectively judged, the language of The God Delusion is less shrill than we regularly hear from political commentators or from theatre, art, book or restaurant critics. The illusion of intemperance flows from the unspoken convention that faith is uniquely privileged: off limits to attack. In a criticism of religion, even clarity ceases to be a virtue and begins to sound like aggressive hostility.

A politician may attack an opponent scathingly across the floor of the House and earn plaudits for his robust pugnacity. But let a soberly reasoning critic of religion employ what would, in other contexts, sound merely direct or forthright, and it will be described as a shrill rant. My nearest approach to stridency was my account of God as “the most unpleasant character in all fiction”. I don’t know how well I succeeded, but my intention was closer to humorous broadside than shrill polemic. Restaurant critics are notoriously scathing, but are seldom dismissed as shrill or intolerant. A restaurant might seem a trivial target compared to God. But restaurateurs and chefs have feelings to hurt and livelihoods to lose, whereas “blasphemy is a victimless crime”.

You can’t criticise religion without detailed study of learned books on theology.

If, as one self-consciously intellectual critic wished, I had expounded the epistemological differences between Aquinas and Duns Scotus, Eriugena on subjectivity, Rahner on grace or Moltmann on hope (as he vainly hoped I would), my book would have been more than a surprise bestseller, it would have been a miracle. I would happily have forgone bestsellerdom had there been the slightest hope of Duns Scotus illuminating my central question: does God exist? But I need engage only those few theologians who at least acknowledge the question, rather than blithely assuming God as a premise. For the rest, I cannot better the “Courtier’s Reply” on P. Z. Myers’s splendid Pharyngula website, where he takes me to task for outing the Emperor’s nudity while ignoring learned tomes on ruffled pantaloons and silken underwear. Most Christians happily disavow Baal and the Flying Spaghetti Monster without reference to monographs of Baalian exegesis or Pastafarian theology.

You ignore the best of religion and instead . . . “you attack crude, rabble-rousing chancers like Ted Haggard, Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson, rather than facing up to sophisticated theologians like Bonhoeffer or the Archbishop of Canterbury.”

If subtle, nuanced religion predominated, the world would be a better place and I would have written a different book. The melancholy truth is that decent, understated religion is numerically negligible. Most believers echo Robertson, Falwell or Haggard, Osama bin Laden or Ayatollah Khomeini. These are not straw men. The world needs to face them, and my book does so.

You’re preaching to the choir. What’s the point?

The nonbelieving choir is much bigger than people think, and it desperately needs encouragement to come out. Judging by the thanks that showered my North American book tour, my articulation of hitherto closeted thoughts is heard as a kind of liberation. The atheist choir, moreover, is too ready to observe society’s convention of according special respect to faith, and it goes along with society’s lamentable habit of labelling small children with the religion of their parents. You’d never speak of a “Marxist child” or a “monetarist child”. So why give religion a free pass to indoctrinate helpless children? There is no such thing as a Christian child: only a child of Christian parents.

You’re as much a fundamentalist as those you criticise.

No, please, do not mistake passion, which can change its mind, for fundamentalism, which never will. Passion for passion, an evangelical Christian and I may be evenly matched. But we are not equally fundamentalist. The true scientist, however passionately he may “believe”, in evolution for example, knows exactly what would change his mind: evidence! The fundamentalist knows that nothing will.

I’m an atheist, but people need religion.

“What are you going to put in its place? How are you going to fill the need, or comfort the bereaved?”

What patronising condescension! “You and I are too intelligent and well educated to need religion. But ordinary people, hoi polloi, Orwellian proles, Huxleian Deltas and Epsilons need religion.” In any case, the universe doesn’t owe us comfort, and the fact that a belief is comforting doesn’t make it true. The God Delusion doesn’t set out to be comforting, but at least it is not a placebo. I am pleased that the opening lines of my own Unweaving the Rainbow have been used to give solace at funerals.

When asked whether she believed in God, Golda Meir said: “I believe in the Jewish people, and the Jewish people believe in God.” I recently heard a prize specimen of I’m-an-atheist-buttery quote this and then substitute his own version: “I believe in people, and people believe in God.” I too believe in people. I believe that, given proper encouragement to think, and given the best information available, people will courageously cast aside celestial comfort blankets and lead intellectually fulfilled, emotionally liberated lives.
 

Legman

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Nov 5, 2002
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Ok Im Sure Ill Get Bashed For Saying This

But Why Is It So Hard For 2 Seperate Groups To Come To Grips With The Fact That There Is Religion And The Opposite (Those Who Beileve There Is No God)

And I Dont Know If Heresy Made This Statment (Im Half Asleep Right Now So Forgive Me If Im Wrong) But The Bible Plays No Part In This Argument For The Simple Fact That It Cannot Be Proven As A Factual Piece Of Religion Or History (Atleast I Beileve It Isnt For 2 Main Reasons 1. The Fact That Theres 2 Versions And To Prove One Or The Other As False Is Impossible And 2. God Knows How Many Changed A Word Or 2 As It Was Passed Down The Line To Benefit Themselves, Once Again This Is My Opinion And If Im Wrong About You Heresy I Apologize)

As Far As ThaG Is Concerned, Your One Ignorant Person To Sit There And Claim To Be Athiest And Yet Blame Religion For Wars, Arent You Contradicting Yourself If You BEILEVE A God/Religion Was The Reason Behind A War When You Yourself Consider Yourself Athiest?

Its Sad To Know Theres People Like You That Are Allowed To Spew Such False Crap And Yet Still Consider Yourself High And Mighty Makes It Seem Like You Got Violated By A Group Of Religious People And Your Mad Cuz You Couldnt Convert Them To Your Athiest Ways. Can You Prove 100 Percent Beyond A Reasonable Doubt That God Doesnt Exist And Science Is The Answer To Our Present Humanity? Id Like To See You Try

Look Face It, Religion Isnt About Tryna Prove God Exists Or Science Is All Wrong, And To Say That Religion Is The Reason We Are "Technilogically Behind" Is Juss More Nonsense Comin Outta Your Mouth. Way B4 We Could Create Vaccines, Or Clone A Cell Into A Breathing Organism There Was Juss Land And Animals, So Your Gonna Tell Me That We Evolved Into This Whole Society Of Educated Humans And Yet Mysterious Events That Science Cannot Prove Werent Sumthing That Played A Role In Our Very Existence

Juss Keep Your Beliefs To Yourself And Leave It Be. Us That Are Christian (Most Of Us) Have Our Faith And Thats All We Need, You That Are Athiest Can Beileve What You Want, But To Sit There And Try To Convince People That Religion Is Downright Wrong And A False Road To Follow Are Following A Fruitless Quest Yourselves.
 

ThaG

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Jun 30, 2005
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ARMEN said:
Ok Im Sure Ill Get Bashed For Saying This
yes, you will

First of all, I am sick of dumb ass fucks like you proudly showing their ignorance here and I don't know why I bother to respond, but anyway:

But Why Is It So Hard For 2 Seperate Groups To Come To Grips With The Fact That There Is Religion And The Opposite (Those Who Beileve There Is No God)
No, there is the group of people of reason and the group of those who choOse to live their life based on superstitions, whether they are christians, muslims, jews, hindu or whatever else you believe in

I don't like the idea that there might be people who live in a delusion, but what is worrying me more is that my life suffers from idiotic traditions and misunderstandings imposed by religion, that's why I fight it

And I Dont Know If Heresy Made This Statment (Im Half Asleep Right Now So Forgive Me If Im Wrong) But The Bible Plays No Part In This Argument For The Simple Fact That It Cannot Be Proven As A Factual Piece Of Religion Or History (Atleast I Beileve It Isnt For 2 Main Reasons 1. The Fact That Theres 2 Versions And To Prove One Or The Other As False Is Impossible And 2. God Knows How Many Changed A Word Or 2 As It Was Passed Down The Line To Benefit Themselves, Once Again This Is My Opinion And If Im Wrong About You Heresy I Apologize)
Why do you believe in what is written in the Bible if it is not a factual evidence for anything? I hope you realize how idiotic you sound. You're saying that "Yeah, people changed a word or 2 here and there in order to benefit themselves, but I will still believe that God exists and listens to my prayers, who are you to tell me my belief is bullshit?"

It doesn't get more grotesque than that

Still, you have a good starting point - you admit that parts of the Bible are fake and serve the only purpose to benefit certain groups of people. now make the next step and realize that's the purpose of the whole book

As Far As ThaG Is Concerned, Your One Ignorant Person To Sit There And Claim To Be Athiest And Yet Blame Religion For Wars, Arent You Contradicting Yourself If You BEILEVE A God/Religion Was The Reason Behind A War When You Yourself Consider Yourself Athiest?
Every time I read something like this, I think I have seen the limit of human stupidity reached, but I am always wrong, stupidity is the most infinite thing in the universe....

I do not believe in any deity, much less the jewish God. I consider religion responsible for the way of the world today.

These are two very different things, it doesn't take too many brain cells to understand it


Its Sad To Know Theres People Like You That Are Allowed To Spew Such False Crap And Yet Still Consider Yourself High And Mighty Makes It Seem Like You Got Violated By A Group Of Religious People And Your Mad Cuz You Couldnt Convert Them To Your Athiest Ways. Can You Prove 100 Percent Beyond A Reasonable Doubt That God Doesnt Exist And Science Is The Answer To Our Present Humanity? Id Like To See You Try
No, I can't

But there is an infinitessimal number of things that can not be proven or disproven, yet the jewish God is the only one them that's considered to be real....

Read what Dawkins says - you can't pove or disprove Zeus either, but you don't believe in him, why do you believe in the jewish God?? Early Christians were thrown to the lions because they were atheists.... they did not believe in Zeus/Jupiter

How do you know your God is realer than Zeus?

Let me guess, you feel it....

LMAO

If anything, the burden of proof lies on the affirmative position, this is one of the fundamentals of logic and science

Look Face It, Religion Isnt About Tryna Prove God Exists Or Science Is All Wrong, And To Say That Religion Is The Reason We Are "Technilogically Behind" Is Juss More Nonsense Comin Outta Your Mouth. Way B4 We Could Create Vaccines, Or Clone A Cell Into A Breathing Organism There Was Juss Land And Animals, So Your Gonna Tell Me That We Evolved Into This Whole Society Of Educated Humans And Yet Mysterious Events That Science Cannot Prove Werent Sumthing That Played A Role In Our Very Existence
Next time you post bullshit, avoid using capital letters, it is very confusing for the reader. Anyway, you just show more ignorance here, we didn't know shit about the world back in the days, and we made up God, now we know so much more that we clearly see God is not only unnecessary, but the biggest delusions in the history if humanity, yet you insist that we revert to our medieval beliefs....

LOL

Science can clearly prove that many of the "miracles" described in the Bible didn't happen. The flood is a perfect example...

Juss Keep Your Beliefs To Yourself And Leave It Be. Us That Are Christian (Most Of Us) Have Our Faith And Thats All We Need, You That Are Athiest Can Beileve What You Want, But To Sit There And Try To Convince People That Religion Is Downright Wrong And A False Road To Follow Are Following A Fruitless Quest Yourselves.
If you were not such an idiot, you would understand I have no beliefs, neither does any atheist. Get yout brainwashed ass out of here and think twice before you post nonsence next time
 
May 10, 2002
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science searches for answers when religon simply wants to write them off as "god did it" You tell me which one looks into the future to understand and which holds us back from furthering our knowledge.