Over 400 Years of Illegal Immigration

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Feb 21, 2003
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#1
Imagine the thoughts of a native resident of the Lower Peninsula of Virginia some 350 years ago as she watches another English ship sail up the James River.

"These illegal immigrants from England are becoming a real problem. When they showed up on our shores a few years ago, they seemed like a desperate small band of foreigners so we greeted them with hospitality as is our tradition, even though they came here illegally, not having gotten the permission from our chiefs to stay and work prior to coming. We saw that these illegals lacked the basic skills to survive here. They probably were not smart enough to find work in England and came here looking for jobs that we would not do. So we took pity on them and allowed them to stay, but they continued to come in greater
numbers, and they are breeding like flies. Now their forts, farms, and houses dot our land. These English brought all sorts of problems with them. They are overtaxing our medicine men and women, being agents of all sorts of disease, from smallpox to syphilis. I am sure it was these English, Spanish and other illegal immigrants that caused the great epidemics that killed so many of our people.

The English also bring ruin to our land with their drug trade. They easily addict to our sacred tobacco, smoking it all day long, rather then using it only on rare occasions in ceremonies, as any civilized person would know to do. They deal these nicotine drugs back to their home country, using their profit to acquire more of our land. Sometimes their drug-trafficking ways leads them to plant tobacco instead of crops, resulting in much starvation. I do not know if these people ever had morals, or if their drug economy took away their sense of right and wrong. The shameless tobacco kingpins in the immigrant community buy people from Africa and use them as slaves to cultivate the plants. These drug-addicted English are so uncivilized that they are even known to eat their own wives! They can't keep their hands off our women-folk or the African women. Before they arrived, there was no such thing as a jail or prison in our land. Now English ruffians fill the lock-ups.

The drugs, crime, disease and uselessness aside, we could welcome these Europeans to become citizens of our land, but they don't even want to learn the language of our country. How can they expect to
function in our society if they can't communicate with us?

Maybe they don't want to really be part of our society and, instead, just live in a "Little England" on our land. If that is true, I can see what the future holds. The English will take most of our land and force us to live on small reservations. They will even destroy those by damming rivers when they want more fresh water. They will destroy the sacred Chesapeake by robbing it of all the oysters, crabs and fish, and by sending their urine and feces there. Something must be done to stop these illegal immigrants from England."

Does any of this lament sound familiar? The U.S. citizens of European extraction currently debate the problem of undocumented workers, as they have ever since their own ancestors arrived here.

Most of the attention is focused on undocumented workers from Mexico. While undocumented workers from that country find jobs throughout the United States, most look for employment in the western states, such as California, Arizona, Texas, New Mexico and Oregon. This seems fitting, since most of their lands used to be part of Mexico before the United States won them in the Mexican-American War.

Remember that war? Pioneers from the United States settled in Mexican-owned territory that now comprises those western states. The "Manifest Destiny" crowd in government supported these pioneers (maybe the Mexicans called them illegal immigrants), wanting to claim the lands of the west for the United States. In 1846 we went to war with Mexico ostensibly over a border dispute with Texas, but one brilliant U.S. victory after another brought that fractured nation to its knees, and the United States got to keep all those western states.

It seems that now many white folks complain that the land that our ancestors took from Native Americans is being infiltrated by Mexicans, but those Mexicans are mainly returning to land that we took from their ancestors, and their ancestors took that land from the Native Americans of the west. Got it?

So, unless you descend from the native peoples of America, be careful about who you label an illegal immigrant.

Benjamin Cuker, Ph.D.
Professor of Marine & Environmental Science
Hampton University
Hampton, VA 23668
[email protected]
ph. 757-727-5884, fax 5740
 

I AM

Some Random Asshole
Apr 25, 2002
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#3
Good read, and it's true....and labeling anyone as anything is dangerous cause you really don't know who they are regardless of what they say to you....most people listen to people and decide who they are, actions speak louder than words and most people I think forgot that shit...
 
Jul 24, 2002
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#5
Well as they say, "We didn't cross the border. The border crossed us"....

And as I've been saying for years, paranoidal Americans should be greatful Mexicans aren't taking their land back Palestinian style...
 

HERESY

THE HIDDEN HAND...
Apr 25, 2002
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#7
It seems that now many white folks complain that the land that our ancestors took from Native Americans is being infiltrated by Mexicans, but those Mexicans are mainly returning to land that we took from their ancestors, and their ancestors took that land from the Native Americans of the west.
So, it appears that the author of this great historical lesson agrees that americans took the land from Mexicans who took the land from Natives. Now, my question is what entitles ANY immigrant (legal or illegal) the RIGHT to enter this country on their own free will? Why is it that Mexico can control its immigration and control who gets the jobs but america can't? Can a black man go to Mexico and get a job illegally? Can a black man go to mexico, apply for citizenship and get a federal job? Here it is Mexico is REFUSING to solve the problem, so they are going to use america as the scapegoat, and the sad part about it is EVERYONE is going to be hurt in the process.

Why should the MILLIONS of people who claim to have rights to this country be admitted in when you CANNOT prove that all of them actually come from the people who inhabited the southwest? If the native tribes who were indigenous to the southwest lived in the area BEFORE Mexicans, where is the Mexican link to the land? A lot of mexicans don't even respect or acknowledge the natives, and if they do accept the natives and claim them as ancestors did those ancestors inhabit what is presently known as Mexico or did they inhabit the southwest?

And I will say this. If anyone tries to pull some palastinian like shit on me and mine its going down. I don't give a fuck who it is or what color the person is. Real Chop.


EDIT: Why is it that the author of this masterpiece failed to mention Mexicos dealings with Spain?!?!?!
 

Stealth

Join date: May '98
May 8, 2002
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#8
HERESY said:
So, it appears that the author of this great historical lesson agrees that americans took the land from Mexicans who took the land from Natives. Now, my question is what entitles ANY immigrant (legal or illegal) the RIGHT to enter this country on their own free will? Why is it that Mexico can control its immigration and control who gets the jobs but america can't?
I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with you, but I think that the reason that immigrants have those types of rites in America but not Mexico is because America has traditionally been "the land of immigrants". Aside from slaves and Native Americans, everybody who came to the US is an immigrant. English, Irish, French, Spanish, Italians, Chinese, Indian, etc.

As for me personally...if immigrants weren't allowed into the U.S., none of my family would be here. Every single one of my grandparents was born in a different country. So I have a lot of sympathy for immigration. I think in a way, people are mad because its Mexicans specifically that are immigrating, and that can be more of a racial issue than an immigration issue.


On a side note, I took a class called the Archaeology of Death and Dying which studies the habits of death and burial across different cultures and civilizations, and it said that in every single society where land is scarce, people will use ancestral rights or burial graveyards to make a claim to the land.

The question for Americans is, how far back do ancestral rights go?
 

HERESY

THE HIDDEN HAND...
Apr 25, 2002
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#9
I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with you, but I think that the reason that immigrants have those types of rites in America but not Mexico is because America has traditionally been "the land of immigrants". Aside from slaves and Native Americans, everybody who came to the US is an immigrant. English, Irish, French, Spanish, Italians, Chinese, Indian, etc.
This does nothing to answer the first part of what you quoted and does very little to answer the second half. Ok, so Mexico isn't known as the land of the immigrants nor will it get a melting pot award within the next year. The problem is Mexico is NOT accepting immigrants to the extent that america is, but people are complaining about americas system. Yes, america is known as the land of the immigrants, melting pot of the world, land of oppurtunity and fortune....the question remains. What entitles ANY immigrant (legal or illegal) the RIGHT to enter this country on their own free will? Can you simply go to Iraq on your own free will and set up shop? Russia? China? Israel? Canada? Vatican City? Iran? South Africa? Brazil? Mexico????????

As for me personally...if immigrants weren't allowed into the U.S., none of my family would be here.
Personally, I feel immigrants SHOULD be let in, and I believe illegal immigrants should be let in IF they go through the PROCESS that has been established by the government. Not adhering to the process or allowing free entrance is both questioning and destroying the countries sovereignty. I also feel the numbers need to be drastically reduced, and I feel this can only be done if LEGAL immigration itself is curbed.

Every single one of my grandparents was born in a different country. So I have a lot of sympathy for immigration.
I don't have sympathy for immigration. I have sympathy for the people who are here and already starving. I have sympathy for those who are places such as Mexico and Jamaica because they are being exploited by their own governments and they are starving. I also feel sorry for them because they are not actively standing up and protesting their government (even if it means a coup/revolt.) Here it is you had MILLIONS of people protesting americas policy towards immigration, but how many protests were conducted to protest the Mexican government, the way it has been mistreating its citizens or its immigration policy?

I think in a way, people are mad because its Mexicans specifically that are immigrating, and that can be more of a racial issue than an immigration issue.
Immigration is not limited to mexicans (people from all over the globe migrate here), and I would say people are mad because of their own insecurities AND because of groups like Aztlan and MEChA.

On a side note, I took a class called the Archaeology of Death and Dying which studies the habits of death and burial across different cultures and civilizations, and it said that in every single society where land is scarce, people will use ancestral rights or burial graveyards to make a claim to the land.

The question for Americans is, how far back do ancestral rights go?
The first question is does everyone involved agree that burial graveyards establish ancestral rights. If this is not agreed upon it is a simple case of "so what?"

The second question is the definition of americans. Who are americans?
 

Stealth

Join date: May '98
May 8, 2002
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#10
You asked why it is that any immigrant has the right to enter America, and why Mexico doesn't have the same standards as America.

I answered because it is the land of Immigrants. Not to say that there is a certain right entitled because of that...but for better or for worse, I think that's why. You gotta understand thought that answer is coming from my point of view, and not from the government or society's point of view, cuz honestly, I really dont know shit about the subject besides how I feel. I'm just throwin up food for thought so I can learn a little more about the topic, which you've helped me do.

I understand your points on everything...not really trying to get into that deep of a conversation today though, I've had enough of those haha.

I agree with you though...I have sympathy for the same things that you do. I just add immigration to that list also.

And also...while immigration isn't just limited to Mexicans...Mexicans are the ones (for the most part) jumping the border to get here.

But you seem to know a lot more about the topic than I do.

And for the last part...burial graveyards dont establish ancestral rights. But having ancestors buried in the graveyard allows someone to make a claim to the land. Of course, this was a lot more prevalent in regional societies without immigrants. In societies that have a variation of culture, often times people use their cultural background to make a claim to the land, rather than having ancestors buried there.
 
Jul 24, 2002
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#11
HERESY said:
So, it appears that the author of this great historical lesson agrees that americans took the land from Mexicans who took the land from Natives.
Just a quick correction, before our people were raped by Europeans;
we were Natives....
(Many of us see ourselves as Indigenous people but with Anglo blood, including me....)
 
Nov 22, 2005
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#12
Mexicans are Native Americans. They just hail from the Mexican tribe. Mexica means people from Mexico in Nuahtal( The native american language spoken from the southwest usa to about costa rica.) Other languages were spoke as well in diffrent tribes throughout the region like Maya. Aztecs actully means people of Aztlan(witch is the southwest usa) And the Mexica as they call them selves was actully prononcec Mesheeca, kind like chicano. Anyways Mexicans are Native AMericans so how are yall gonna say the mexicans took the land from the natives? What they took it from themselves? The spainards took the land from the natives! When Mexico formed what happened was that the natives took there land back, until america came around and jacked half of it, the area know as aztlan, were the orignial aztecs came from!!! Yall need some history lessons. Native americans werent savages and barbarians, They were great civilizations, with thier own culture, language, roads, armys, sports, astronomy, polictics, and religion. with huge cities with roads and massive pyramids with a common language everyone in the area spoke!!!
 

pAc0

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Feb 8, 2006
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#15
Why is it that Mexico can control its immigration and control who gets the jobs but america can't?
America can't control who gets the jobs because its the INDIVIDUAL's responsibility to take care of himself and/or his family. There's so many jobs out there its rediculous and people are blaming "the econmy" and "immigrants".

Can a black man go to Mexico and get a job illegally?
To be honest with you, yes he can get a job illegally. I'm speaking on experience.

Can a black man go to mexico, apply for citizenship and get a federal job?
Lets be realistic here, why on god's earth would he/she want to move to mexico for employment??? The answer is yes, but good luck. THe process takes a looooooong time.

Here it is Mexico is REFUSING to solve the problem, so they are going to use america as the scapegoat, and the sad part about it is EVERYONE is going to be hurt in the process.
THe only people that get hurt in the process are those who risk their lives crossing that border or swimming thru the golf of mexico. All those who are already living here can keep reading the newspaper and keep watching CNN or Fox and let the media guide them. They are not hurting us one bit. TEXACO, ENRON, PG&E, and other multi million dollar companies are choosing to pay less for labor or jacking up the prices on gasoline and natural gas so they can earn record profits in the process.

Let me ask you this how has illegal/legal immigrants affected your everyday life? Are you afraid that every turn you make you see a brown face? When you hear words spoken in Spanish do you feel threatened? Does the landscaper guys make you feel insecure? Do you get angry when you pass up a car and it's a mexican bumpin mariachi or nortenas? Or do you get upset when a sister is taking your order at mcdonalds or taco bell?
 
Apr 25, 2006
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#16
westbaygiant said:
Mexicans are Native Americans. They just hail from the Mexican tribe. Mexica means people from Mexico in Nuahtal( The native american language spoken from the southwest usa to about costa rica.) Other languages were spoke as well in diffrent tribes throughout the region like Maya. Aztecs actully means people of Aztlan(witch is the southwest usa) And the Mexica as they call them selves was actully prononcec Mesheeca, kind like chicano. Anyways Mexicans are Native AMericans so how are yall gonna say the mexicans took the land from the natives? What they took it from themselves? The spainards took the land from the natives! When Mexico formed what happened was that the natives took there land back, until america came around and jacked half of it, the area know as aztlan, were the orignial aztecs came from!!! Yall need some history lessons. Native americans werent savages and barbarians, They were great civilizations, with thier own culture, language, roads, armys, sports, astronomy, polictics, and religion. with huge cities with roads and massive pyramids with a common language everyone in the area spoke!!!
word...
 

HERESY

THE HIDDEN HAND...
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#17
@ Mig you said:

Just a quick correction, before our people were raped by Europeans;
we were Natives....(Many of us see ourselves as Indigenous people but with Anglo blood, including me....)
Mig, why is it that a lot of mexicans do NOT embrace their so-called indigenous roots by accepting the native americans? Not only that, but why do native americans make a distinction? Anyone that is promoting the idea that most mexicans of today are related to the native americans of the past (and present) or are in fact THE native americans is doing so strictly for political purposes. And to be perfectly honest, the mexicans are pulling the same stunt the so-called jews are pulling in Israel right at this very moment. There is NO WAY you are going to connect all of todays mexicans to those who inhabited the south west because HISTORY shows they were two DISTINCT group of people that FOUGHT with each other. And finally, all you have to do is ask the same question you ask the so-called jews and you are back at square one. WHAT TRIBE ARE YOU FROM?

So it is foolish to assume or even make the claim that the entire mexican race are the same as native americans. In fact it is downright laughable and disputed by HISTORICAL evidence (and believe me, I am in this comfy leather chair laughing my ass off!)

@westbaygiant you said:

Mexicans are Native Americans.
No. Mexicans are MIXED just like Mig has implied and just like EDJ has already presented in his thread.

They just hail from the Mexican tribe
So, what you are telling is that MILLIONS of mexicans stem from this "Mexican tribe" and that these people inhabited the southwest united states? Btw, can you provide me with any evidence linking the Aztecs to the land north of the current US/Mexico border? I'd appreciate that very much!

Mexica means people from Mexico in Nuahtal( The native american language spoken from the southwest usa to about costa rica.)
That isn't what this link says and I can give you MANY links supporting the FACT that MANY native tribes did NOT speak the language (and still don't to this day.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nahuatl_language#Genealogy

Also, other than your account, I have NEVER heard of Mexica meaning "peaople from mexico". What I have read states it is derived from three distinct words and they are:

1. Metx(tli) = moon
2. xic(tli) = navel
3. co = in

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Aztec/Terminology

Other languages were spoke as well in diffrent tribes throughout the region like Maya. Aztecs actully means people of Aztlan(witch is the southwest usa)
There have NEVER been a people of Aztlan because no such place called "Aztlan" has EVER existed, and if you cite the The Disturnell Map as proof you are in ERROR.

And the Mexica as they call them selves was actully prononcec Mesheeca, kind like chicano. Anyways Mexicans are Native AMericans so how are yall gonna say the mexicans took the land from the natives?
Again, many mexicans do NOT consider themselves to be the same as "native americans" and MANY native americans do not accept mexicans as native americans. If the Aztecs and Mesheeka/Mesheeca are natives where does that place the natives who helped the spaniards do them in? Where does that leave the native tribes who FOUGHT with the Aztecs?

What they took it from themselves?
According to a group who has NOTHING to gain they are distinct. According to a group that is politically and money motivated both groups are the same. Did the Aztecs take the land from themselves when they conquered the Toltec and Mayan civilizations?

The spainards took the land from the natives!
See the above. Also, the spaniards also controlled the mexican population at that time. They used them to fight, used them for labor etc.

When Mexico formed what happened was that the natives took there land back, until america came around and jacked half of it, the area know as aztlan, were the orignial aztecs came from!!!
So what you are saying is mexico was formed when the natives took the land back and america came and took a mythical place called aztlan. LOL! You my friend sound foolish. I see so many holes in that theory I don't know where to begin. Maybe the fact that parts of the land were legally PURCHASED? Maybe the fact that the americans defeated the spaniards AND the mexicans?

Yall need some history lessons.
You do....

Native americans werent savages and barbarians, They were great civilizations, with thier own culture, language, roads, armys, sports, astronomy, polictics, and religion.
No one has implied that the native americans were savage barbarians. No one has denied the FACT that native americans were a culture people who had their own religion, practiced science, had their own languages, roads, etc. However, how are these accomplishments related to the current illegal immigration problems?

with huge cities with roads and massive pyramids with a common language everyone in the area spoke!!!
You had me up to when you said "with a common language everyone spoke" because HISTORY proves this is NOT the case.

So next time someone says Mexicans aren't Native Americans, Bitch slap they stupid ass!
Mexicans aren't native americans. Now what? No one ONLINE or OFFLINE is going to lift a FINGER against me and if you want to try your hand name your time and place.
 

HERESY

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#18
@ZigZagBurna you said:

America can't control who gets the jobs because its the INDIVIDUAL's responsibility to take care of himself and/or his family. There's so many jobs out there its rediculous and people are blaming "the econmy" and "immigrants".
This does nothing to answer the statements you quoted. America CAN control who gets jobs, and it does so by LIMITING immigration and placing restrictions and penalties on companies who DO hire illegal immigrants. Yes, this country DOES have jobs, but when you can exploit someone for $3 an hour and work him for 12 hours a day what are you going to do? Pay the guy who requires $7.50 an hour?

To be honest with you, yes he can get a job illegally. I'm speaking on experience.
That was a typo, I actually mean LEGALLY, but since I missed that point we can stick with blacks illegally working in mexico. In fact let us start with you. Why were you illegally working in mexico? What prohibited you from going through the legal process of becoming a mexican citizen and paying taxes to the mexican government?

Lets be realistic here, why on god's earth would he/she want to move to mexico for employment??? The answer is yes, but good luck. THe process takes a looooooong time.
Why did you go to mexico? Why were you employed? So you are saying a black man can get a federal job in mexico? Can you give me any examples of african americans working federal jobs in mexico?

THe only people that get hurt in the process are those who risk their lives crossing that border or swimming thru the golf of mexico. All those who are already living here can keep reading the newspaper and keep watching CNN or Fox and let the media guide them. They are not hurting us one bit. TEXACO, ENRON, PG&E, and other multi million dollar companies are choosing to pay less for labor or jacking up the prices on gasoline and natural gas so they can earn record profits in the process.
Actually, as I have already proven in several threads, illegal immigration IS harming everyone. For one, it is removing money from the mexican economy and does NOT solve the current poverty problem in mexico. Secondly, it is INCREASING the current poverty level of the united states. Third, it continues the cycle of manipulation and exploitation of workers. Fourth, the net fiscal cost of illegal immigration is rapidly rising. So, please by all means, make an attempt to disprove what I just said and provide us with validated info that proves no one is being harmed by illegal immigration.

Also, you mentioned the companies who choose to pay less for labor and jack up the prices, but how does that relate to illegal immigration? If there were laws prohibiting cheap labor, and if america had the SAME LAWS OUTLINED IN THE MEXICAN CONSTITUTION the american unemployment and poverty levels would not be as high as they are. In fact here is what the Mexican Constitution states:

Article 32: “Mexicans shall have priority over foreigners under equality of circumstances for all classes of concessions and for all employment, positions, or commissions of the Government in which the status of citizenship is not indispensable. In time of peace no foreigner can serve in the Army nor in the police or public security forces.”

So, let us address the double standard of Mexico before we address the companies who manipulate the people for gain.

Let me ask you this how has illegal/legal immigrants affected your everyday life?
Besides prices of goods and services going up? Besides over crowded hospitals? Besides the fact that blacks are DENIED jobs because the mexicans or asians who are managers won't hire them? Besides the fact that when I DO pay taxes a chunk goes to people who have no right to be here and the citizens who are here miss out? Nothing.

Now, let me ask you this. How has illegal immigration affected your life?

Are you afraid that every turn you make you see a brown face?
For the last 4-6 years my neighborhood has been predominately latino/mexican. I am not troubled by seeing brown faces and have already stated that I endorse immigration and believe illegal immigrants should be allowed to stay as long as they go through the process. Please, utilize your reading comprehension skills before you attempt to put me on the spot with a half-assed question rooted in stupidity and utter nonsense.

Does the landscaper guys make you feel insecure? Do you get angry when you pass up a car and it's a mexican bumpin mariachi or nortenas? Or do you get upset when a sister is taking your order at mcdonalds or taco bell?
See the above. If you are incapable of doing so , please refer to what I have previously posted. Here it is for your enjoyment.

Personally, I feel immigrants SHOULD be let in, and I believe illegal immigrants should be let in IF they go through the PROCESS that has been established by the government.
Knowing this to be true, can you give me a logical explanation as to why you would ask if I feel insecure, angry and afraid?
 

EDJ

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May 3, 2002
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#19
^BUT HOW DID I KNOW YOU WAS gONNA gET ON WESTBAYgIANT? LOL
AND WHAT HAPPENED TO YOUR STATEMENT ABOUT WHATYOU SAID I SAID ABOUT MEXICANS?

WESTBAY gIANT,
YOU SHOULD OF CAME WITH FACTS INTEAD OF INSULTIN' FOLK IN YOUR FIRST POST ON THE g.O.M. NOW YOUR ASS IS MARKED. AND YOU FORgOT TO MENTION ABOUT THE BLAK BLOOD MEXICANS HAVE. http://siccness.net/vb/showthread.php?t=184058
KNOW ABOUT IT.

MIgKIDDY,

YOU STRESSED, "Just a quick correction, before our people were raped by Europeans;
we were Natives....
(Many of us see ourselves as Indigenous people but with Anglo blood, including me....)"

BUT NOT THE BLAK? PEEP:http://siccness.net/vb/showthread.php?t=184058
SOAK IT.