How do your double Vocal Tracks?

[40ozThugg]

aight i was talkin to my cousin yesterday
about doubling tracks

he likes recording one track
then setting up another and doubling it
by doing another track over it..

but at my house i just set up two tracks at tha same time
and get tha double done in one take..
then i just EQ each track differntly
and these no phase on it..
and it comes out good....

so i just wanna know how you guys double tracks?
do you do one at a time ?
or both at once..?

and which is tha best way to do this..?
and can recording two tracks at once
work alright? lemme know ur thoughts

peace

 

[EDJ]

^51ST OF ALL,
CHANgE YOUR NAME IF YOU WANNA BE TOOKEN SERIOUSLY,

XNDLY,
BY DOIN' THE TWO VOCAL TRAKS AT ONCE IS DEFEATIN' THE WHOLE PURPOSE OF OVER-DUBBIN'. BUT IF IT WORKS FOR YOU, AND YOU HAPPY WITH IT, THEN DO WHAT YOU DO. YOU'RE JUST WASTIN' A TRAK IN MY OPINION. YOU BETTER OFF RECORDIN' ONE TRAK, THEN JUST COPYIN' IT AND FUCCIN' WITH IT THE SAME WAY YOU EXPLAINED.

 

[Toxsick]

the way you do it is the lazy way and isnt accomplishing what you really want.
do them seperate. do them at different pitches or do a track with more energy then the first. just fuck around see what works

 

[HERESY]

Just curious when you do it your way does the entire take seem to be 3DB louder? Does it sound as if you simply copied the take?


:hgk:

 

[Mr. D-Sane]

recording one track
then setting up another and doubling it
by doing another track over it..

That is how it is normally done. Recording 2 identical tracks is really pointless for 2 reasons.....

1. You're not goin' to get the desired effect that a second track would produce regardless of how much you EQ it.

2. The second track is a waste of HD space because you could just copy and paste the original to the next track.

We used to do 3 tracks......the lead.....a dub all the way through and then a real hyped up or mellow track all the way through. Nowadays though......alot of the stuff I record is just 1 lead track and a couple hype tracks usually just emphasizing the rhyming words or lines. It of course depends on the song though and the feeling we're trying to convey.

There are many ways to record though. Syko for instance created his signature sound while recording Sykotherapy with me. I don't know if he's still doin' it like this.....but he would do the lead track......a second track in a lower vocal tone (kinda just talkin' it) and then a mid-tone or hyped up 3rd track. Then I would mix them accordingly with the mood of the track. If it was a more laid back song then I would make the more laid back track real prominent in the mix.....if it was a more intense track....then I would let the more hyped track cut through the mix more and mix the laid back one lower.

There is no real formula for making music or a right or wrong way to do things. But you need to know what's gonna work and what doesn't. Experimentation is the key. Some of my tightest shit started out as a mistake or accident. And this is a story MANY good artists will tell you.

I would abandon your technique though and spend the extra minute or 2 and spit the second one. And if your shit ain't lining up right.....then you need to practice your delivery and get it air tight!!

 

[Sick Wid It]

Re: Re: How do your double Vocal Tracks?

There is no real formula for making music or a right or wrong way to do things. But you need to know what's gonna work and what doesn't. Experimentation is the key. Some of my tightest shit started out as a mistake or accident. And this is a story MANY good artists will tell you.

I agree 100%.

I would abandon your technique though and spend the extra minute or 2 and spit the second one. And if your shit ain't lining up right.....then you need to practice your delivery and get it air tight!!

AMEN! How many times have you heard this, "can't you just copy it?".. :dead: It's been my experience that most rappers are lazy, especially ones who have certified hits. Doesn't make any sense.

It's funny to me that a cat can rap thru his verse, then go back for another take and be in a totally different tone and/or pitch. Then when you address it, they don't understand what you're talking about. All I can think is, 'how the fuck did you make it here?'

Generally speaking for rap, about 3 warm-ups and 3-5 takes (depending on what the situation calls for). If you ain't gettin' it in that, DON'T CALL YOURSELF A RAPPER!

 

[40ozThugg]

hey thanks Mr. D-Sane
and everybody else for tha tips!!!
ill try to experiment...
and find my own sound...

@ Hersy
Naw it doesn;t sound the same as when i just copy
a the track..
when i just cut and paste
for some reason.. its makes tha PHase effect....
and i dont want tha phase..
but when i record each of them EQed different
it doesn;t phase....
and i just turn one track down a lil
and turn on up and it sounds coo...

but yeaaa im gonna stop being lazy..
and just record the 3 tracks.. one at a time..
and try out different things...

 

[HERESY]

Another thing you can do is comp the tracks. Take bits and pieces of track 3 and combine that with bits and pieces from track 4 and 1. Not too long ago I had a GRADUATE from a music school in the lab. He said a couple of things that made NO sense. He said "dither everything" and "copy the track". Personally I've NEVER applied dither to every track and I don't know of anyone who does. I told him that I didn't see the point in copying a vocal track because it would sum to the middle and sound 3 db louder. He said to do it and I did it. I even panned both of them hard but they still sounded as if they were in the middle and 3db louder.


What you CAN do is offset the copy or other track. move it a couple of ms off from the MAIN take. I had to do this recently with some guitar tracks we recorded. Experiement man.


:hgk:

 

[Mr. D-Sane]

What you CAN do is offset the copy or other track. move it a couple of ms off from the MAIN take. I had to do this recently with some guitar tracks we recorded. Experiement man.


:hgk:

Doesn't that just create what is known as "the poor mans chorus" effect though? I've done that before with some singing hooks.....but that's it.

 

[HERESY]

^^^^^ It depends on how *far* you move the tracks. If you move them too far they sound off. I had two songs with guitar tracks that were recorded at another lab. When I loaded the songs and panned the tracks *HARD* they sounded as if they were never panned. It was a weird summing/phase issue and I've experienced it before. When I solo the tracks (doesn't matter which one) the pan settings are fine. When both tracks are audible its in the middle. I've never done it with vocals just guitars but I've heard of it being done. What I have done is comped tracks, I do that all the time.


Another suggestion is to apply ANATRES AUTO TUNE to the tracks. Personally I feel autotune is a tool that should be used when all else FAILS.


At the end of the day you can (and will) get more/better ideas when you do multiple takes.



:hgk:

 

[View 1]

As far as doubling goes, I've done several different things. 1st I learned that not everyone needs a double, when I 1st started recording we were using 3 tracks per verse, now after time and experience those same cats do it in one track. That of course all depends on the person and there vocal strength and ability.

If I use two tracks there is two ways I do it.

1.) If they spit the whole verse the back up track has to be on point with the lead track if its not, I will make them spit it till it is, I then pan the back up track a little to the left or right depending on the beat ( I mean very little ) and drop it down anywhere from 4-7 db's.

2.) Now if there gonna do a back up of just certain word's what I do is record one soild lead track, and then I have them do anywhere from 2-4 different adlib tracks. I then pick and chose from those tracks which takes are the best and then combine those parts into one track, disregarding everything else that wasn't used. The reason for that, is that I find most cats cant do a perfect adlib everytime. Some times I'll use almost one entire adlib track and just a peice or two from one of the others but its worth it, if your putting this out there with your name on this product then take the time to make a quailty product. Then again slite pan and drop it 4-7 db's.

I've learned alot of this really late in recording our debut album, and there is so many things I wish I could change on it, it came out good, but I will never make the same mistakes again, its called learning.

The only time I'll use three tracks is if it requires it, like when I recorded First degree for our album. He wanted three tracks to gain his sig sound. 1.) Regular voice track, 2.) One deep almost bass type vocal track, 3.) One saprano track for the high end, mix to taste and there you go.

 

[Mr. D-Sane]

Anybody here tried using Vocalign?? I've used it to clean up some verses......it works great.

 

[PLOT THE ONE]

double up

depending on the studios capability.i use a 64 track set up so ill use as many as 10 tracks a verse.not that i keep all ten but like the variety when i mix down the song. alot of left right and a full sounding production. if your using a computer record low and bring up after. will sound alot crisper and cleaner.if you just duplicate track makes monotone.spit twice.

 

[Kp]

I just finished a song...

with 27 tracks....and that was the most we ever used. Shit came out hot though.

 

[View 1]

Anybody here tried using Vocalign?? I've used it to clean up some verses......it works great.

I tryed the demo version, it worked real good. If the tracks your using though are at the same pitch, it will basically make the second track sound like the 1st one. It did seem like a very useful tool to have in the plug in list.

 

[Mr. Samos]

What you CAN do is offset the copy or other track. move it a couple of ms off from the MAIN take. I had to do this recently with some guitar tracks we recorded. Experiement man.


:hgk:


Thats one of the worst effects anyone can do when mixing vocals. I like to record my main vocal, if its strong and I am satisfied with it, I'll do over-dubs just on the ends. I'll also tend to do a full over-dub and have it way in the back lowered to about a -.04 to -.06 dB, I find it sounds more pure and full. With recording on 2 tracks at the same time, I think that ruins the mix right from the start, and when you nudge over the over-dub, even a .0001 space, it will always sound fucked up and amatuer. Experimenting is definetly the key ingredient.

 

[View 1]

Thats one of the worst effects anyone can do when mixing vocals..

Say's who??? You??? There is no right or wrong way, its what ever way works best for you. And if you read what hersey wrote he was talking about a guitar part he did not vocals.

 

[Toxsick]

it aint a matter of what works best, its a matter of that method sounding cheap and amateur. do you want your shit to sound amateur or professional?

 

[HERESY]

@ View 1 I got the cd and thanks for pointing out the obvious.


@Mr. Samos if you had read what I posted you would see I was referring to guitars and not vocals. Just curious are you familiar with recording guitars? Have you *EVER* recorded a guitar (or played one) in your life? Are you familiar with phasing/summing issues? Keep the following in mind. NO take is going to be the ***EXACT*** same take UNLESS it's a COPY. ***IF*** a track is moved .0001 space it will NOT always sound fucked up and amatuer. If you move them TOO FAR (Which is what I said in the previous post) it WILL sound off.

BTW you gave no logical reason as to WHY it would sound amatuer. So to kill your statement that it would sound fucked up and amatuerish I'll quote two engineers with PLATINUM and GRAMMY credits.

CHRIS LORD-ALGE: "In a worst-case scenario, put a delay on the second channel and nudge it a few milliseconds until it feels right. A couple of milliseconds will usually fix it; the trick is to move it just enough to make it sound good while listening in mono." ELECTRONIC MUSICIAN APRIL 2001 VOL. 17 #4


MARK NEEDHAM: " I may actually move one of the tracks in Pro Tools-that is, jog one slightly one way or the other in time until the two tracks line up. You can watch the wave forms or just listen until it's right. I usually do it by ear. I may use the waveforms to start with, but in the end what matters is how it sounds. "ELECTRONIC MUSICIAN APRIL 2001 VOL. 17 #4





:hgk:

 

[View 1]

@HERESY - Coo, let me know what you think good and bad. Soak it for awhile then let me know.

Peace.