HOLT....or...HARRISON ?
- Thread starter Reptile
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You act like Holt had nobody throwing to him. Did you forget Warner's MVP seasons? They are no Peyton Mannings but they were putting up numbers like Peyton. Remember the "Greatest Show On Turf?" Or did you forget those years already? The Rams had weapons everywhere, that will free up any receiver. But fuck the stats, they say nothing. Kurt Warner has a career QB rating second only to Steve Young.. Dude is ass. So fuck the numbers, they are deceiving.
Refer to my last post as to why Marvin is a better receiver.
Refer to my last post as to why Marvin is a better receiver.
Dont those kinda of condescend eash other?
And wouldnt that make Torry even better that he had ANOTHER great reciever on his other side?He STILL did that with Bruce...thats fuckin amazing....
But Kurt Warner,Trent Green & Bulger do not=Peyton...i dont care what anyone says...
Look at someone like Moss...he is a HORRIBLE route runner...hell...he doesnt even RUN routes...he just runs and they throw the ball up...does that make him better or worse than Marvin?What about Barry Sanders?Until Emmit broke his yards records...he was number one for a long time...but stats dont matter...right?I mean...its not like he ran for over 2600 yards and 37 TD's in his last year at OKST...but numbers are decieving...right?
It all comes down to opinion when you are talkin about elite players in the NFL...
Why would it? Because it made it easier for him to get free? In my book, having the attention drawn elsewhere so you can get free doesn't make you even better. But to each his own.
This is a bad example because Moss is strictly a deep threat. In the vertical game Moss is far better than anyone in the league (except these pitiful raider years). HE is a big play receiver. He is also a unique type of WR. Compare Tory to Steve Smith instead. Smith is way better than Holt, even though Holt has put up better numbers.
Wrong. Did you forget about Walter Payton? I guess so.
Yes ma'am.
Look, by your arguement here, Emmitt Smith is a better RB than Barry Sanders and Walter Payton and everyone else who has ever played the position because his numbers put him on top. But you need to look into it a little deeper. Barry did what he did with no offensive line. Emmitt Smith did it with one of the best O-Lines in football, including the best lineman to ever play the game in Larry Allen. Emmitt owes everything to the big boys up front, Barry owes nothing to anyone.
Back to the topic at hand..
Look at it like this.. When teams have to worry about two good WRs, they focus on the proven guy first. That man draws double-teams and even triple-teams, which leaves WR #2 in single coverage most of the time. Having Bruce on the other side made things easier for Torry Holt. On the other hand, everyone is always focused on Marvin Harrison because he doesn't have an Isaac Bruce to draw some attention away from him. They double- and triple-team him all the time, but he still gets open and makes big plays. Granted, Peyton Manning is a fuckin monster at QB, but a QB cannot make the receiver get open and catch his passes. I could understand your arguement about Holt not having a Peyton to throw to him if he had garbage QBs, but the fact is Holt has always had a QB that was more than capable of gettin him the ball.
This is a bad example because Moss is strictly a deep threat. In the vertical game Moss is far better than anyone in the league (except these pitiful raider years). HE is a big play receiver. He is also a unique type of WR. Compare Tory to Steve Smith instead. Smith is way better than Holt, even though Holt has put up better numbers.
Wrong. Did you forget about Walter Payton? I guess so.
Yes ma'am.
Look, by your arguement here, Emmitt Smith is a better RB than Barry Sanders and Walter Payton and everyone else who has ever played the position because his numbers put him on top. But you need to look into it a little deeper. Barry did what he did with no offensive line. Emmitt Smith did it with one of the best O-Lines in football, including the best lineman to ever play the game in Larry Allen. Emmitt owes everything to the big boys up front, Barry owes nothing to anyone.
Back to the topic at hand..
Look at it like this.. When teams have to worry about two good WRs, they focus on the proven guy first. That man draws double-teams and even triple-teams, which leaves WR #2 in single coverage most of the time. Having Bruce on the other side made things easier for Torry Holt. On the other hand, everyone is always focused on Marvin Harrison because he doesn't have an Isaac Bruce to draw some attention away from him. They double- and triple-team him all the time, but he still gets open and makes big plays. Granted, Peyton Manning is a fuckin monster at QB, but a QB cannot make the receiver get open and catch his passes. I could understand your arguement about Holt not having a Peyton to throw to him if he had garbage QBs, but the fact is Holt has always had a QB that was more than capable of gettin him the ball.
I understand where youre comin from...but after a year or two...wouldnt you think defenses would catch on?Torry has put up monster numbers EVERY year....
Smith is one of my favorites....i just dont see why you dont like Torry...it seems AT ALL....it seems like everytime hes gettin thrown to...its a big play....are yu saying he is a terrible reciever?
I mixed up my all-time stats..i had forgotten that Barry retired before he broke the record...thats my bad memory..this is what happens when you get close to 30....
Is it really necassary to throw insults?Wow...and i thought this was a friendly discussion...
I never said that...i also reflect on how many years someone has played...Barry played limited time....so has Torry...and has gotten to 10,000 yds faster than anyone in the NFL period...im sorry but thats not any type of fluke...
See above.
Ill give you that....but to say Emmitt was just an average back with a good line...is not 100% true...he had vision,hands and a combo of power & speed with the ability to make people miss...
And as i stated earlier..how long do you expect people to be fooled?THey have played side-by-side for many years..are you really tryin to tell me that Bruce is still getting double & triple teams?Cmon man....you know damn well that aint true...if anything...its a roll reversal..teams game-plan against Holt...hes been in the league 5 less years than Isaac and at TGHIS point in his career...is BETTER than Isaac..
You make valid points....but Peyton has also made people like Reggie Wayne a viable weapon....not to mention having Edge in the backfield all those years was somethign as well(same could be said for Marshal)...
And not that those three QB's mentioned werent GARBAGE...but they were no-namers...they came in and asapted to a certain style offense...and they thrived....Warner has fallen apart(dude to old age mostly),Trent is OK...he is a very smart QB....and Bulfer is underrated..i will give you that...but hes STILL no Peyton..
Like i said..its all opinion...numbers are numbers...and like you said...sometimes the numbers need to be examined to more detail to find the real truth behind them....
I like them both...very good recievers...and ill leave it at that...
Smith is one of my favorites....i just dont see why you dont like Torry...it seems AT ALL....it seems like everytime hes gettin thrown to...its a big play....are yu saying he is a terrible reciever?
I mixed up my all-time stats..i had forgotten that Barry retired before he broke the record...thats my bad memory..this is what happens when you get close to 30....
Is it really necassary to throw insults?Wow...and i thought this was a friendly discussion...
I never said that...i also reflect on how many years someone has played...Barry played limited time....so has Torry...and has gotten to 10,000 yds faster than anyone in the NFL period...im sorry but thats not any type of fluke...
See above.
Ill give you that....but to say Emmitt was just an average back with a good line...is not 100% true...he had vision,hands and a combo of power & speed with the ability to make people miss...
And as i stated earlier..how long do you expect people to be fooled?THey have played side-by-side for many years..are you really tryin to tell me that Bruce is still getting double & triple teams?Cmon man....you know damn well that aint true...if anything...its a roll reversal..teams game-plan against Holt...hes been in the league 5 less years than Isaac and at TGHIS point in his career...is BETTER than Isaac..
You make valid points....but Peyton has also made people like Reggie Wayne a viable weapon....not to mention having Edge in the backfield all those years was somethign as well(same could be said for Marshal)...
And not that those three QB's mentioned werent GARBAGE...but they were no-namers...they came in and asapted to a certain style offense...and they thrived....Warner has fallen apart(dude to old age mostly),Trent is OK...he is a very smart QB....and Bulfer is underrated..i will give you that...but hes STILL no Peyton..
Like i said..its all opinion...numbers are numbers...and like you said...sometimes the numbers need to be examined to more detail to find the real truth behind them....
I like them both...very good recievers...and ill leave it at that...
I'm sure they found out Torry was a huge threat, probably as threatening as Bruce. But when you have two good receivers it's hard to cover both. One of them will obviously be free.
It's not that I don't like him, I just feel Holt is getting a little too much credit here. I'm not saying he is a terrible receiver, it's obvious he is very good.. But he is not better than Marvin Harrison.. That's what I'm getting at. Anything I've said about him that has made you think I don't like him at all was only said because it seems people wanna discredit Marvin because he has Peyton Manning throwing to him, when Holt had advantages of his own that have been overlooked.
LOL
It wasn't meant for you to take offense. My boys and I always say things like Yes Ma'am to eachother.. It's a comedic insult.. Not one to be taken seriously by any means.
As do so many current NFL runningbacks that will never see stats like Emmitt's. The reason? Their surrounding cast is not as good as Emmitt's was, and I'm not just talking about the O-Line. I'm talking about Aikman and Irvin making defenses worry about the pass so they didn't just focus on run stopping.
A lot of the time a player's success depends greatly on the people around him.
I don't think you understand what I'm trying to say..
Holt's early years are when Bruce relieved pressure and allowed him to get freed. Those early years contributed heavily to Holt's 10,000 yards record. I'm not saying someone is STILL freeing him up because obviously he is the biggest threat the Rams have and Ds should be focused on him. The point was Holt had help getting to this point, and stats will not tell you that.
If anything Marvin has made Wayne a viable weapon. Defenses focus on stopping Harrison. Peyton is not out there running routes and freeing up Reggie Wayne.. but he does have the vision and awareness to find him and get him the ball. Marvin is like Wayne's Isaac Bruce.
It's not that I don't like him, I just feel Holt is getting a little too much credit here. I'm not saying he is a terrible receiver, it's obvious he is very good.. But he is not better than Marvin Harrison.. That's what I'm getting at. Anything I've said about him that has made you think I don't like him at all was only said because it seems people wanna discredit Marvin because he has Peyton Manning throwing to him, when Holt had advantages of his own that have been overlooked.
LOL
It wasn't meant for you to take offense. My boys and I always say things like Yes Ma'am to eachother.. It's a comedic insult.. Not one to be taken seriously by any means.
As do so many current NFL runningbacks that will never see stats like Emmitt's. The reason? Their surrounding cast is not as good as Emmitt's was, and I'm not just talking about the O-Line. I'm talking about Aikman and Irvin making defenses worry about the pass so they didn't just focus on run stopping.
A lot of the time a player's success depends greatly on the people around him.
I don't think you understand what I'm trying to say..
Holt's early years are when Bruce relieved pressure and allowed him to get freed. Those early years contributed heavily to Holt's 10,000 yards record. I'm not saying someone is STILL freeing him up because obviously he is the biggest threat the Rams have and Ds should be focused on him. The point was Holt had help getting to this point, and stats will not tell you that.
If anything Marvin has made Wayne a viable weapon. Defenses focus on stopping Harrison. Peyton is not out there running routes and freeing up Reggie Wayne.. but he does have the vision and awareness to find him and get him the ball. Marvin is like Wayne's Isaac Bruce.