Heresy

Vyasadeva · Feb 3, 2003

So that your other thread does not go off the topic, I have responded to what you wrote there here. Here we can chop it up about God, religion or whatever.

If the entire planet exists within the universe, and the entire universe exists within God, why would Vallejo not be INSIDE of God?

The ten commandments are rules for US to follow so that WE can act in accordance with the ABSOLUTE will of God. God is all-pervading, He is Absolute, that means that He permeates both "this" and "that".

Yes, Krsna has human attributes as well. But unlike the human bodies and thoughts we have, God is ETERNAL.

Being "angry" or "happy" however, are temporary manifestations of dual emotions.

Humans get "angry" when their lusts go unfullfilled. They get "happy" when something pleasurable happens to them. Our feelings of happiness and anger are the result of a temporal existence. Since God is eternal, where is there any chance of Him "wanting" something so that He can be "happy", or being "denied" something which would make Him "angry"? Such a God is not omnipotent, nor is He perfection. Such a God is LIMITED like we are. That God is anthropomorphized.

People think that God gets "angry", but they do not understand that He is the all-powerful Supreme Being, which means He ETERNALLY enjoys all that He desires. His will is always perfectly fullfilled. What people do not understand about the Supreme Being is that when He is "angry", it is the same as when He is "happy". And when He is "happy", it is the same as when He is "angry". God is unchanging. There is no duality IN HIM. There is no DIVISION IN HIM. Division and duality ONLY appear in OUR MINDS.

Yes He has human attributes, but He is not a human.

Yes, everything comes from God, including our ability to discern between "this" and "that". *WE* have to make the distinction between "this" and "that" so that we can understand what *is* God and what *is not* God. But when we see the truth, we will see that ALL "this" and "that" duality exists WITHIN the ONE ABSOLUTE God.

God is ALL THERE IS, therefore although WE must make the distinction between this and that, God does not make such distinctions because they are both "Him".

No, God HIMSELF is not Oakland, but Oakland exists WITHIN God, and God is the totality of all things. Oakland, although NOT GOD PERSONIFIED, is nonetheless created by and connected to Him and it is not separate FROM Him. ALL land and ALL universes exist WITHIN God.

"Why worship what is created?" -- Excellent question. People are so blind that they worship the land they walk on. They claim proprietorship of a land which existed before they were born and which will exist after they die. Therefore they do not OWN the land, and the land is NOT worthy of worship. This is why I say that God is not concerned with what patch of land we occupy, He is concerned ONLY with the amount of LOVE we express to Him.

I can make that claim regardless of what Judaism or Islam says. Maybe you can explain to me why my statement is not true?

It is not a question of adherence to doctrines, it is a matter of TRUTH.

2+2=4 is TRUE whether you believe in it or not. God is all-pervading and all-encompassing whether you believe it or not.

HERESY · Feb 4, 2003

i do not adhere to the universe being located *INSIDE* of a "god".

once again you are MISSING the point. please read exodus 20:5. you will see why i directed you to the ten commandments.

now compare what you previously said:

based on your statement i came to the conclusion that you felt applying human traits to the non physical is wrong.

so either god DOES have attributes of man or he DOESNT. if he DOES why did you say

i NEVER gave an inclination that it WASNT......

according to the bible wanting worship and wanting to have fellowship with mankind. according to the bible SIN and broken covenent would make him angry. not only that but read exodus 20:5. we have a case of YHWH describing himself as jealous god.

a.) i see no connection with god being happy or angry and him being omnipotent.

b.) if what you say is true that would mean god is not capable of LOVE (an emotion).

compare your statements again:

but in your previous statement:

so i come to the conclusion that:

a.)krsna is LIMITED (based on your statements).

b.)you may be using the word "anthropomorphized" out of context.

maybe so......i suggest you read your post again.

can you explain to me why i need this info? did i say that god was human? if i am telling you that god has had human attributes applied to him (an·thro·po·mor·phized, an·thro·po·mor·phiz·ing, an·thro·po·mor·phiz·es ) and i understand the word being used (its a common word that pops up when one researches dogma/doctrine/religion) what is your reason for telling me god is not human?

maybe so.

oakland is located in california,which is located within the united states which is located in north america which is located on the planet earth which is located in the milky way. these places are NOT located INSIDE of a diety called "god" or vishnu or yhwh or allah or galvatron.

you were created by your parents yet YOU are SEPERATE from them. dont believe me? go 4 weeks without eating while they continue to eat. i GURANTEE that you DIE while they LIVE.

are we connected to god? yes. are we SEPERATE? yes. a DISTINCTION is made between created and creator.

according to islam and judaism (and christianity) this land is PROMISED because of a covenent between YHWH and ABRAHAM. in the quran and bible god is VERY concerned with the land we occupy.

not only that but i believe that god wants us to take care and be RESPONSIBLE with what he GIVES us. so if he gives us land why wouldnt he be concerned if we are good stewards over it?

by the way whats the use of expressing love to this god if he cant feel it? he can feel love yet he cant feel anger and...well.....im gonna leave that alone for now.

if the god of judaism and islam are the same god the statement is false. if they are different its still false. because in EACH book,surahs and canon you have instances of a "god" showing favortism to certain people in a certain place and because of a VERY specific reason. this is why i say study islam and judaism before you make the claim.

i dont adhere to that doctrine as truth. so yes it is a matter of adherence. i dont believe in the "all in all" concept. WE are NOT omnipresent.....neither is OAKLAND. im not saying that god is NOT in oakland. im saying oakland is NOT physically located *in* god.

god is in EVERYTHING if we choose to accept it or not. he is in US if we choose to accept it or not. we are not omnipresent. so the chances of us being everywhere /all encompassing etc etc etc is zilch......

:h:

:H:

n9newunsixx5150 · Feb 4, 2003

Heresy, it seems you do not adhere to the idea of God being infinite. Either this, or you have misinterpreted the term infinity.

Assuming that you do adhere to Him being infinite, tell me something...

If infinity is all but yet God is separate from His creation, what becomes of creation?
What is infinity plus 3?
If we are not a part of God (infinity) then we absolutely do not exist! You cannot add, subtract, multiply or divide from infinity.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What Vyasadeva is saying is quite simple...
God does not desire as we desire. Why would He? God did not create us because He was lonely. God's will is done. EVERYTHING THAT HE WILLS IS DONE. Man's communion with God is for OUR benefit not God's. GOD IS THE BENEFIT. Infinity lacks nothing. I understand that, even after these words I have written you will resort to what it says in the bible and it seemingly points to a God who does have desires. But, you must understand the difference between absolute and relative truth. I like the statement in the movie The Matrix when Morpheus said, "There is a difference between KNOWING the path and WALKING the path." Certain truths are to be known, absolutely. Others are ways of approaching truth from a relative perspective. When the Bible implies a God who has desires you must consider it as an "approach" to our benefit of communion with God. It is as simple as that. The Bible is there to put you on the path. If it did not give us this approach it wouldn't be as effective to reaching God.

Vyasadeva · Feb 4, 2003

So where is the universe located?

What is the point then? You said

To which I replied:

Your point was that God does make distinctions between THIS and THAT. My point is that God is not concerned with THIS and THAT because He is the source of them both. God does not make distinctions between THIS and THAT, *MAN* does. To God, there is no opposition between THIS and THAT, for Him they are *ONE* and the *SAME*.

If you telling me to look at the ten commandments was not a means for me to see that God DOES make distinctions between THIS and THAT, then what was the point?

Yes, God has made us in His image, but the thing is, we do not "apply" human traits to God. As you said, He is non physical. He eternally possesses His attributes whereas a physical body possesses attributes only temporarily. Yes, God is ultimately a PERSON, but He is NOT a dualistic HUMAN like we are.

When God is "angry" He is "happy". When God is "happy", He is "angry". For God there is NO DIFFERENCE in these two things. For US however we must make distinctions. If I am happy then I am not angry, and if I am angry then I am not happy.

So man is made in the image of God, but God is transcendental whereas we are dualistic. We are either holding something or we are not. God is doing both at the same time.

I know you didn't, and I didn't say that you did. I was referring to anyone who would argue (Muslims or Jews or whoever) that God favors one piece of land and despises another.

God does not "want" these things, He has them eternally. For someone to "want" something means that there is a point in time in which they do not "have" it. If God did not have everything that He wanted at all times, then He would be limited by time. How could this be possible for an eternal being?

Again, this is a faulty description. If God is eternal and unchanging, then how can we have the power with which to "make" Him angry? If our actions determine the relative happiness or anger of God, then God is not eternal and infinite. If the emotions of God "change", then He is governed by time and circumstances and His mood is determined by what WE do.

What exactly does God have to be jealous of? Every planet in the universe belongs to Him. Every person and every object in existence is His. God is the ONLY owner of all things, so how can He be jealous of Himself?

If God is omnipotent (all-powerful), then His will is being perfectly and completely carried out for all eternity. Since God's will is perfectly fullfilled, where is the possibility that He is "happy" it is being done, or "angry" that it is not? There is not a time when it is NOT being done, so there is no question of "anger" at it being denied, nor is there a question of "happiness" upon it's completion. It is eternally done.

God is perfectly capable of love, but you have to understand that God does not experience love like we do.

For us love is dependent on external circumstances. If we have a girl, we can love her. If she fucks up and violates, we stop loving her. Love for us is temporary and illusory. LOVE as God experiences it is eternal.

There was never a time which He did not LOVE, nor will there come a time when He ceases to LOVE.

Your conclusion is premature and unsupported. All I have said is that God is NOT DUALISTIC and that He is NOT LIMITED.

He does have human attributes but that does not mean that God is limited.

I have used the word anthropomorphized completely in context. When a person says that God gets "angry" or "happy", or that he "likes" this land but he "dislikes" that land, they are treating God as a person with dualistic mannerisms who makes distinctions, and those distinctions can ONLY take place within TIME. Since God is timeless, there is no chance of Him possessing such dualistic quality.

Ok.

Obviously you do not understand the word if you insist that God gets "angry" when you do something bad and He gets "happy" when you do something good. That dualism in a person applies to MAN. God is not dualistic, He is ABSOLUTE. He is perfectly equipoised at ALL times.

So if you continue to say that God gets "angry/happy", then it is clear you do not understand what it means to anthropomorphize Him.

WHERE ARE THEY LOCATED THEN?

What does this have to do with the location of the cosmic manifestation?

Exactly. You have just described acintya-bhedabheda-tattva: Inconceivable simultaneous CONNECTION and DISTINCTION FROM all.

Where does the distinction take place? In our MIND. The reality is we are eternally connected to God but due to ILLUSION, we see ourselves as SEPARATE from Him.

NOTHING is SEPARATE from God, it is only our minds which give us the ILLUSION of separation. Oakland, Ca., U.S., Earth, Milky Way, Universe, are ALL connected to God. He is the all-pervading Supreme Being. ALL pervading means He extends to and permeates through every single atom. This would include the atoms which make up Oakland, Ca.

Since He is the source of all existence, and since He pervades all existence, then it only follows that we exist WITHIN HIM.

"By Me, in My unmanifested form, this entire universe is pervaded. ALL beings are in Me, but I am not in them." B.G. 9:4

"O conquerer of wealth, there is no Truth superior to Me. Everything rests upon Me, as pearls are strung on a thread." 7:7

All things are resting upon and within the Supreme Lord. Yes there is distinction and separation, but this is only seen through the duality of carnal mind.

Yeah, and those are religions based on the bodily conception of life. They are materialistic philosophies so it is not surprising that they place such importance on the land.

Yes, we should be responsible and take care of the land He has given us. God is not concerned with the land or what happens to it, He desires only that we love Him, and if we are engaged in loving worship of God, a natural byproduct of that love is that the land we occupy will be taken care of and be treated responsibly.

Vyasadeva · Feb 4, 2003

Who said that God cannot feel love? He *IS* love. Anger is an emotion which is the result of unfullfilled LUST. Since God's will is perfectly being done, how can He feel anger?

I have studied those religions, and they focus on the bodily conception and materialistic viewpoints. It is not surprising that they think God "favors" a particular land and "dislikes" those from other lands. Since ALL land belongs to God, the idea that He is partial to a particular piece of land is nonsensical.

*YOU* do not get to decide the truth. Truth is not dependent on any "doctrine", or what you "adhere" to. If you "adhere" to the doctrine that says 2+2=5, does your "adherence" make the equation true? No. Truth is Truth regardless of any doctrine or belief. Truth is objective.

Can you elaborate as to exactly what this "all in all" concept entails?

Of course we are not omnipresent, and obviously neither is Oakland. I never said that either of them are omnipresent. That is an attribute ONLY God possesses.

Not only is Oakland *in* God, but the ENTIRE cosmic manifestation rests *in* Him. If everything does not rest *in* God then WHERE DO THEY REST?

"As the mighty wind, blowing everywhere, always rests in ethereal space, know that in the same manner all beings rest in Me." B.G. 9:6

Yes, God is present in everything because He is omnipresent. Omnipresent means ALL-PERVADING. So if God pervades ALL, does that not include Oakland, Ca.? Is not OAKLAND a particular area which is PERVADED by God, and since God also pervades all other areas in existence, does that not mean that Oakland rests *IN* God?

I know we are not omnipresent. I never said that we were everywhere, nor did I say that we are all encompassing. That is an attribute of God.

miggidy · Feb 4, 2003

We do not live "Inside" God.
We live inside his creation....

I think that's where Heresy is coming from, he doesn't claim that God isn't omni-present.
God created the material universe, and we live in it and not in him.
Of coarse, you can say that we live in him because his spirit is everywhere but it all depends on how you look at it.

n9newunsixx5150 · Feb 4, 2003

^^^^

then where are we in relation to God?

miggidy · Feb 4, 2003

In the material world

n9newunsixx5150 · Feb 4, 2003

*In relation to God*

Also, you said:

Of coarse, you can say that we live in him because his spirit is everywhere but it all depends on how you look at it.

There you go!

Vyasadeva · Feb 4, 2003

God is everything that is WITHIN, and He is everything that is OUTSIDE.

We are simultaneously resting *IN* Him, and *OUTSIDE* Him.

HERESY · Feb 4, 2003

@916

based on what statement (that i made) do you come to the conclusion that i do not adhere to the "idea" of god being infinite? in fact show me a statement where the word "INFINITY" was used by me or interpreted by me in ANY fashion.

you are assuming based on what?

I HATE WHEN I HAVE TO REPLY TO YOU. SIMPLY BECAUSE ***YOU*** DONT READ THE POSTS. YOU SEE BUT DONT SEE. SELECTIVE SIGHT OR SOMETHING. WHY WOULD YOU ASK ME A QUESTION LIKE THAT? HAVE I ONCE SAID THAT WE ARE *NOT* A PART OF GOD OR EXTENSION? HERE ARE MY WORDS:

AND

GOD IS A SEPERATE ENTITY/BODY FROM HERESY. HERESY IS IN A FIXED LOCATION. GOD IS NOT. HERESY IS CONFINED TO THIS WORLD AND ITS LAWS. GOD IS NOT.

GOD IS *NOT* "INFINITY". GOD ***IS*** INFINITE. INFINITY IS *NOT* A DIETY. WE ARE *SEPERATE* FROM GOD AND THAT *WE* HAVE AN ORIGIN. WHERE IS GODS ORIGIN?

IM DONE TALKING TO YOU. NEXT TIME READ MY POSTS BEFORE YOU ASSUME THINGS.

@V:

I UNDERSTAND THIS BUT TO SAY THAT GOD IS *NOT* CONCERNED ABOUT HIS CREATION (EARTH) SEEMS A TAD OFF IN MY OPINION.

ACTUALLY I SUGGEST YOU STUDY JUDAISM AND ISLAM BEFORE YOU MAKE THAT STATEMENT. STUDY HOW THEY VIEW THE AFTERLIFE,OTHER WORLDS ETC ETC ETC. HOW CAN YOU SAY THAT THEY ARE MATERIALISTIC WHEN YOU HAVENT STUDIED THEM?

IN OTHER POSTS/THREADS YOU STATED THAT YOU *DIDNT* STUDY THESE RELIGIONS.....NOW ALL OF A SUDDEN YOU HAVE.

I DONT ADHERE TO THE VEDAS. NO HAVE NO COMMON GROUND. YOU TYPING MATERIAL FROM THE VEDAS HAS NO RELEVENCY TO *ME*. I DONT BELIEVE IN KRSNA.

1.WE ARE NOT OMNIPOTENT OR OMNIPRESENT.

2.I HAVE NOT SAID THAT GOD IS *NOT* PRESENT IN THESE AREAS. WHAT I HAVE SAID IS THAT *WE* ARE *NOT* IN ALL OF THESE AREAS.

3.WE HAVE AN *ORIGIN*.

4.WHY ARE YOU TELLING ME WHAT ALL PERVADING MEANS WHEN I TYPED:

5.IF *YOU* FORM A POT FROM CLAY ARE YOU THAT POT? NO. ITS AN EXPRESSION OF YOU,ITS YOUR CREATION BUT THAT POT IS NOT *YOU*. THAT POT HAS ITS OWN ATTRIBUTES AND IS UNDER DIFFERENT LAWS/REGULATIONS THAN YOU.

WE ARE AN EXTENSION OF GOD. JUST LIKE YOUR BROTHER IS AN EXTENSION OF YOUR MOTHER AND FATHER.

YOU ARE LOCATED IN A DIFFERNT AREA THAN YOUR PARENTS. YOU AND YOUR PARENTS *DONT* OCCUPY THE SAME MASS. IF YOU CANT SEE WHERE IM GOING......

LOOK YOU KNOW WHAT IM GOING TO SKIP EVERYTHING ELSE AND SHOW YOU WHY I SAID TO LOOK AT EXODUS 20:5.

START AT EXODUS 20:1. IT SPECIFICALLY STATES THAT *GOD* SPOKE THESE WORDS. IN VERSE 2 HE IS SPEAKING IN FIRST PERSON.SAME WITH 3 AND 4.HOWEVER SOMETHING STRANGE HAPPENS IN 5. GOD SEEMS TO APPLY HUMAN ATTRIBUTES TO ****HIMSELF*****.

SO EITHER GOD IS GUILTY OF ANTHROPOMORPHIZING HIMSELF (BASED ON HIS OWN WORDS IN GENESIS) OR ITS RIGHT TO APPLY THESE ATTRIBUTES TO HIM.

TO SAY THAT GOD DOES NOT HATE IS A FALSE HOOD. HE HATES SIN. TO SAY THAT HE IS *NOT* DUALISTIC IS IMPLYING THAT HE TOLERATES SIN AND EVIL(SOMETHING THE GOD OF THE BIBLE AND THE QU'RAN WILL HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH).

NO THAT WAS *NOT* MY POINT. READ MY POST AGAIN.

I GET TO DECIDE WHAT IS TRUTH FOR ***ME***. I SEE ***NOTHING*** TO SUPPORT WHAT YOU SAY AS TRUTH. SO I DONT ADHERE TO WHAT YOU ARE TYPING.

NOW I WOULD REPLY TO THE REST OF THIS THREAD BUT I WONT.

IM OUT *FOR GOOD* AND I CAN GURANTEE YOU THAT I WONT BE READING THIS POST OR ANY OTHER POST IN REGARDS TO RELIGION/DOCTRINE/DOGMA ETC ETC ETC. YOU HAVE YOUR VIEWS. I HAVE MINE. I WILL END IT AT THAT. I WOULD HAVE PREFERED THAT THIS TOPIC WAS BETWEEN YOU AND I HOWEVER I SEE THAT IT ISNT. SO I WILL GRACEFULLY BOW OUT.

YOU CAN REPLY TO THIS THREAD BUT I HAVE NO INTENTIONS OF REPLYING BACK.

THANKYOU.

:H:

Vyasadeva · Feb 4, 2003

Aiight, consider it finished.

This basically sums it all up, and it speaks VOLUMES:

You are illusioned irreconcilably if you think that *YOU* get to decide what is TRUE in any way, shape, form or fashion.

There is a child somewhere in a math class saying "2+2 DOES NOT equal 4. I get to decide what is true for ***ME***."

The teacher laughs affectionately at the child because the child is under the illusion that TRUTH is something which can be DECIDED. No one DECIDED that 2+2=4, it is an *OBJECTIVE* TRUTH. No one DECIDED that God exists, He is an OBJECTIVE TRUTH.

If you DECIDE that water is not wet, your decision IS NOT TRUTH. It is still wet regardless of what you DECIDE. If you DECIDE that the sun is nonexistent, your decision has NO BEARING on the TRUTH of the matter, which is that the sun does in fact exist.

In discussions with people who think that *THEY* get to decide what is TRUE, it truly is akin to talking to a sign post or a stop sign. Now I see why you suggested that I might like talking to sign posts, and that is because discussing God with you IS like talking to a sign post. You have just admitted that *HERESY* is the all-knowing entity who decides what is TRUTH, and since that is the case there is precious little that can be gained from discussions with you.

We can just agree to disagree andleave it at that.

You are welcome.

n9newunsixx5150 · Feb 5, 2003

@H

You also said, "i do not adhere to the universe being located *INSIDE* of a "god".

I brought up "infinity" because you need to understand that there is only ONE infinite and we are a part. Maybe I misunderstood you. It seemed you were implying a complete separation of God and His creation. As if we're down here on earth and God is way up somewhere in the heavens. You say you do not adhere to creation being within Creator but if Creator is infinite then it never was a case of true separation. I am sure you would agree when I say it is US who separates ourselves from God. But, in the end, One needs to come to the realization of unity with the Divine. You will also agree that God is everywhere all the time. And for you it isn't a question, you have stated your unity with YHWH. So don't be concerned with anyone else's "separation" from God at this point. I just wanted to verify that with you. I feel, even though we have different ways of viewing it, we are on the same tip in the end. Perhaps we just like arguing because of petty differences in our beliefs....

n9newunsixx5150 · Feb 5, 2003

@H

quote:
TO SAY THAT GOD DOES NOT HATE IS A FALSE HOOD. HE HATES SIN. TO SAY THAT HE IS *NOT* DUALISTIC IS IMPLYING THAT HE TOLERATES SIN AND EVIL(SOMETHING THE GOD OF THE BIBLE AND THE QU'RAN WILL HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH).

oh, He tolerates it. The devil is still here! If He didn't tolerate sin the devil would have been out of the picture a long time ago. God hates sin as He hates hate. God hates hate therefore He LOVES! In the midst of sin God will not pay attention to our cries of blasphemy. Once we have been cleansed of our transgression and speak according to His will of good, then He will bless us. GOD LOVES UNCONDITIONALLY. There is a difference between our love and DIVINE LOVE. God does *NOT* adhere to duality. When it states that He "hates" it is not in the same manner that we hate. If I love my girl and love being around her, wouldn't it make sense to say that I HATE not being around her? It is a double negative. God Hates hate...
I hope you can feel me on this

miggidy · Feb 5, 2003

n9newunsixx5150 said:

Maybe you need to be more specific.

n9newunsixx5150 · Feb 5, 2003

@Miggidy

Ok, let me ask you something...

Do you believe that God is waaaay up in a place called heaven and we are down here on earth?

If you do....

explain to me what is outside of God. Remember, God is the infinite. In which there can only be ONE infinite. How is it possible to have something outside and separate from infinity? If you wish you can grab your calculator and tell me the answer to infinity plus 73. Or you could try infinity plus 94,522.

If you don't....

Then where are we in relation to God? If God is everywhere then we must be within Him. Once you can tell me where the infinite ends and we begin, I will gladly bow to you.

miggidy · Feb 6, 2003

^^^^
That's why I said that you need to be more specific.
When you believe that we live inside God, are you implying that we live inside the God deity?

n9newunsixx5150 · Feb 6, 2003

^^^^^^
Let me put it this way then...

There is only one!

God is around us, in us and through us, etc...

We are within INFINITE, or we just don't exist at all. Once again...

There is only one!

God does not separate Himself from His creation. Only, at times, do we separate ourselves from Him. The approach of "being within God" is used to understand the unity. We are, in fact, a part of the infinite. This can be known when one asks oneself, "If I am not a part of the infinite, then where can I exist?"
I hope this makes it easier to understand...

miggidy · Feb 7, 2003

Yeah, that's why I said that it depends how you look at it.

Heresy

Sicc OG

THE HIDDEN HAND...

Anti-feminist

Sicc OG

Sicc OG

Sicc OG

Anti-feminist

Sicc OG

Anti-feminist

Sicc OG

THE HIDDEN HAND...

Sicc OG

Anti-feminist

Anti-feminist

Sicc OG

Anti-feminist

Sicc OG

Anti-feminist

Sicc OG