Philosophy Discussions: Karl Marx
Prabhupada: "And let me know what is the weight. Take this elephant. Weigh him." So they went to... All market, they went to find out a scale, how to weigh this. Where is the scale for weighing an elephant? So they could not do anything. They came back. "What happened?" "Sir, we could not get such a scale." "Oh, you could not weight? All right. Minister, will you kindly weigh this elephant?" "Yes, sir." "All right, take it." So within six minutes he said, "It is twenty mounds," and like that. You see? So they were standing. They were surprised: "How is that? Within some minutes he came back and he said the exact weight." So king asked that "How did you weight? Did you get some very big scale?" "No sir. It is not possible to weight the elephant in the scale. Very difficult." "Then how did you weigh?" "Yes, I took it in a boat. I got it on the boat. I saw the water mark, and I marked it, and then, after getting down the elephant, I put weight on it. So when it came to that water mark, I understood." So the king said, "Now you see the difference?" They agreed, "Yes." Buddhir yasya balam tasya nirbuddhes tu kuto balam: "One who has got intelligence, he has got strength, and one who has got no intelligence, rascal fool, what strength there is?" These people are like that, rascal fools. We don't take advice from them. We take advice from Krsna or His representative.
Syamasundara: So religion is not just a police force for keeping people in illusion.
Prabhupada: He does not know what is religion. He does not know, and he is trying to define religion. He does not know. I have defined already religion. Religion is the service spirit. That is religion. Now, real religion is the service. Everyone is engaged in giving service, but he does not know where his service will be successful. That he does not know. Therefore Krsna gives us indication that "You serve Me and your service spirit will be successful." That is religion.
Indian man: Sir, we see that Dr. Stanley Johnson... He is my friend. He said he was traveling in Moscow. One lady got in the plane, and she told him, "You look religious. You must very rich also." No. "Sir, you look religious, so you must be very rich." He said, "Why? Why do I look rich?" Because they have the idea that only rich men can think of religion.
Syamasundara: Yes. That's their whole idea.
Prabhupada: That means foolish, all set of foolish rascals, that's all. From his talking we can understand. He is the leader. So he is a big foolish man, and his followers must be all fools. That's all.
Syamasundara: Yes. He said that religion is made up by the capitalists to keep the...
Prabhupada: That means he does not know religion, what is religion, and he wants to define religion. What a foolish man he is. He does not know what is the meaning of religion. Religion means which you cannot change. That is religion. Dharmam tu saksad bhagavat-pranitam. Yes. Even up to this day, because India is standing on religion, although it is all broken, still, all over the world--I have traveled--they are adoring India.
Syamasundara: But their explanation is that because everyone is so poor in India that they rely on religion for condolence.
Prabhupada: But still, people come from other countries to learn religion here. And one Chinese writer, I have seen his book. He plainly writes that "If you want to study religion, it is India."
Syamasundara: But more people go from India there to learn science.
Indian man: No, no.
Prabhupada: No. That is another thing, material science. Material science. But when people come from West to India, they do not come here to learn material science. They come here to understand what is God, these things.
Indian man: Not only that, you know. Gandhi told the same thing. He said when Kanjulatem(?) went to London, he was told that "Your religion is ancient. Why did you not come to teach us?" He said, "Whom to teach? Your fathers and grandfathers were jumping off trees."
Prabhupada: That's it. Darwin's theory.
Indian man: He said, "Whom to come and teach? You were not there."
Prabhupada: (laughs) Very good answer. Yes, Darwin says that all monkeys. "So you are monkey. How to teach you?" It is a very good answer, yes.
Syamasundara: So he said that God does not create man, that man creates God.
Prabhupada: That is another nonsense. He is a nonsense rascal. That is being proved by his talks. Tavac ca sobhate murkho yavat kincin na bhasate. You cannot understand a rascal fool unless he talks. Now he is talking. And sooner I did not know that he is so fool, but I can understand now he is a great fool. This is the test. Tavac ca sobhate murkho yavat kincin na bhasate. Murkha, you can... A murkha can dress himself very nicely, like gentleman sitting amongst the gentlemen, but a learned man and a fool will be understood as soon as he speaks. As soon as talks like a foolish man, one can understand, "Oh, he is a rascal." And as soon as one speaks great subject matter, then one can understand, "Oh, he is learned." So by his talking, now we can understand he is a great fool.
Syamasundara: So his follower was Nikolai Lenin. Mostly he reinforced all of Marx's ideas, but he added a few touches of his own. One is that revolution is fundamental, that history...
Prabhupada: There were so many revolutions. It is not that they have made revolution. There were other revolutions, especially in Europe, the French Revolution. There were so many revolutions.
Syamasundara: He studied the revolutions, and he said that history moves in leaps and progresses toward the Communist leap. So he wants to make a leap into the dictatorship of the proletariat, and this he calls the final stage of development of history.
Prabhupada: No. We can say, and they may note it also, that after this, the Bolshevik Revolution, there will be many other revolutions, many other revolutions, because so long people will live on the mental plane there will be only revolution. That's all. Our proposition is, "Give up this mental concoction. Come to the right point. And that is spiritual platform." If one comes to that spiritual platform, that is... Just like Dhruva Maharaja said, svamin krtartho 'smi varam na yace: "No more revolution. I am completely satisfied because I have now seen You." So unless one comes to God, the revolution will go on. Rather, this is final revolution. We don't say final revolution, but... We don't expect that Krsna consciousness will be taken by everyone, but within this material world the revolution will repeat unless one comes to God consciousness.
Syamasundara: The Hare Krsna revolution.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Syamasundara: He said that...
Prabhupada: Yasmin vijnate sarvam evam vijnatam bhavanti. That is the Vedic injunction, that people are searching after knowledge, knowledge, knowledge, knowledge, knowledge, so when one understands the Absolute Truth, then he understands everything. Yasmin vijnate sarvam evam vijnatam bhavanti. And Bhagavata says, na te viduh svartha-gatim hi visnum: "They are trying to approach the objective, but they do not know the objective is Visnu." Durasaya ye bahir-artha-maninah: "They are simply trying to adjust by so many revolutions, these material things." But he has no knowledge that he is spiritual being. Unless he goes back to the spiritual world and associates with the supreme spirit, God, there is no question of happiness. Exactly, if you have taken a fish from the water, there is no question of happiness of this fish unless it is again thrown into the water. So we have come... We are part and parcel of the supreme spirit. We have come from the spiritual world with the mentality of enjoying this material world. So unless we divert, reverse ourself to that spiritual conclusion, we understand our spiritual position and go back to home, we go to back... Yad gatva na nivartante tad dhama paramam. When you come to this position, that is happiness. Otherwise you go on theorizing, but one revolution will be... That is the world. "Yielding place to new. Old order changes, yielding place to new." This is revolution. So this will go on. What he is thinking now new, it will be old after some days, and another new thing will come, will be changed. So this is the order. "Old order changes, yielding place to new." Or, in other words, "History repeats itself."
Syamasundara: He says that this is purely the nature of matter, that there are always two conflicting properties, and that this inner impulse, this inner pulsation of opposite forces, will cause history to take leaps like you just said, from one revolution to another. But the Communist revolution he calls the final revolution because it is the perfect answer.
Prabhupada: Yes. I can take it in this sense. If the Communist idea is spiritualized. So long the Communist idea will remain materialized, it is not final. We have got Communistic idea. Just like we believe... They believe that the state is the owner; we believe God is the owner. So this state is a small state, Russian state. They can be satisfied, but because it is wrong application... State is not the owner. Real owner is God. So from state, when they come to the conclusion, "Not the state but God is owner," then their Communistic idea will be fulfilled. And as they say that everything must be done for the state, we are actually teaching perfect Communism. We are teaching that Krsna is the owner. Bhoktaram yajna-tapasam sarva-loka-mahesvaram. Krsna says, "I am the supreme enjoyer. Everything is..." Just like in our society we are doing everything for Krsna because we know Krsna is the enjoyer. Sarva-loka-mahes... He is the proprietor. So this Communistic idea is vague, but it can be perfected when they come to the conclusion, according to the Bhagavad-gita, that Krsna is the supreme proprietor; He is the supreme enjoyer; He is the supreme friend of everyone. Then the people will be happy: "Oh, we have got a friend like Krsna." Just like Arjuna was certain that "Krsna is my charioteer. Oh, I am victorious." And it is confirmed, yatra yogesvarah krsnah: "Where Yogesvara, Krsna, is there," yatra partho dhanur-dharah, tatra srir vijayo, "there victory and everything is there." So this is an idea. This idea can be welcomed provided they are prepared to replace the so-called state by God. Then it is...
Syamasundara: Well, that's pretty unlikely because they consider that reality is composed of what appears to our senses.
Prabhupada: That is not reality. Then why there is revolution? If it is reality, then why it is being changed? So in this material world there is a vague idea, reality. Nothing reality. Everything false. Sankaracarya therefore says, jagat mithya: "It is false." There is no reality. What is reality? What is definition of reality?
Syamasundara: What appears to our senses.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Syamasundara: What appears to our senses.
Prabhupada: Well, your senses are not reality.
Syamasundara: And economic determination.
Prabhupada: That's all right. You are sensually thinking, but your senses are not reality. They are imperfect. Your eyes... You are thinking "I am seeing reality," but you are not seeing reality. Just like you see, daily seeing the sun. Really you are seeing. But you do not know what is sun. Then what is the benefit of that seeing?
Syamasundara: He says whatever is useful...
Prabhupada: Useful, useful... So far you are seeing the sun, you know the sunshine is useful, the sun heat is useful. That does not mean that you have understood sun as reality. The superficial benefit you are getting. That does not mean that you know reality. Do you know? You are getting sunshine; you are utilizing it. Sun's heat, you are utilizing. Does it mean that you know really what is sun?
Syamasundara: He would say that the only reality instead of the sun is that the crops would grow, feed everyone.
Prabhupada: That's all... They are simply by-products, simply by-products. But you do not know the reality. If you speak of reality, if you are satisfied only the by-product of the reality, then that is a different thing. But when you speak of reality it does not mean, because it appeals to your senses, therefore it is reality, because your senses are imperfect. You cannot realize anything perfectly with these defective senses.
Syamasundara: He says that if there is anything beyond the appearances, physical world, it is also physical, that everything is physical, everything is material.
Prabhupada: That's all right. Physical... Even physical, you do not know. Even this physical manifestation of this universe, what do you know about this? You do not know. There are so many planets. You cannot go even in the moon planet.
Syamasundara: He says it's only necessary to know what applies to us, what...
Prabhupada: Then don't talk of reality. Don't talk of reality.
Syamasundara: I only need to know that which is useful to me.
Prabhupada: That use, it is for you but because your knowledge is so poor. Just like a low class man, he will think, "This police constable is government." Because he is a low class man, the police constable takes him to the custody, and he is controlled by the police cons..., so he is father and mother. But for a high personality the police constable is nothing. There are so many others. So this reality is relative according to the person. He is a man with poor fund of knowledge. Therefore immediate effective, that is reality. Just like child. He thinks a lozenges which is two cent worth, he thinks it is reality. But to his father that two cents worth lozenges... (aside: ) Thank you very much. Hare Krsna. To his father, he will think, "What is this lozenges?" The child will ap... "Oh, father, it is so nice. It is heaven. It is so sweet." That means reality according to the person... So he is a man with poor fund of knowledge; therefore he is accepting reality which is giving him some immediate profit. That's all.
Syamasundara: Yes. Just like he considers Kant's idea, "the things in themselves," to be "the things for us,"...
Prabhupada: (aside) You can change that.
Syamasundara: ...instead of something existing in itself, that "everything exists for us and everything exists for my use."
Prabhupada: Yes. The animal also thinks that "This is reality." "I have got one goat," a tiger thinks, "to eat. Oh, this is reality."
Syamasundara: This is just for me.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is... These things are discussed in Upanisads. The students asks, "What is reality?" He says that "Think over." Now came, that "Eatables are reality," because he's a small child. So he says, "No, this is not reality. You think over." In this way, this way, one after, one after another, one after another, he finally came to Brahman. So this reality differs according to knowledge. Krsna can... The same example: a child. Two things: one lugdoo and one one-thousand-dollar note--which one he will take? He will take this lugdoo. For him this is reality. He does not know the value of this paper. But for his father, which one of them, he can immediately... So reality means according to your knowledge. So these are poor class of men; therefore they are always talking of economic production and this and that, the immediate... That's all.
Syamasundara: In fact, when he says that what is practical is the criterion for truth, that is also relative, what is practical. Just like for the child the practical thing is the laddu.
Prabhupada: Yes. That's all right. For a child the lugdoo is reality, but that does not mean that is equal to that one thousand dollar note.
Syamasundara: So we have to find out what is really practical.
Prabhupada: Yes. No, practical, both things practical. But according to the person, the value is different.
Syamasundara: Oh. But isn't there an absolute value?
Prabhupada: The absolute value is God. That is division (?). Satyam param dhimahi. That is our objective. We take in the Srimad-Bhagavatam that janmady asya yatah: "The original source of everything." Satyam param dhimahi: "I meditate upon the Supreme Truth, Absolute Truth."
Syamasundara: And that is also practical?
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. Why not practical? Do you mean to say that you are, all Krsna conscious people, you are after something impractical?
Syamasundara: Well, they will say...
Prabhupada: They may say. What is your position? They may say.
Syamasundara: The practical thing is that it makes us happy.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Syamasundara: The practical result is that we are happy.
Prabhupada: So anyway, unless you feel practical, why you are after it? That is my proposal. They may say whatever nonsense they can say.
Syamasundara: So the practical result should be satisfaction, happiness.
Prabhupada: Yes. You are eating, but somebody says, "What you are doing?" But by eating, if you feel satisfaction of your hunger, that is practical. You haven't got to take certificate from others. You are eating; if you feel satisfaction, if you feel strong, that is the...
Syamasundara: So these men, both of them, they have a great faith that philosophy can change the world.
Prabhupada: And this is the real philosophy. Janmady asya yatah. This is philosophy. Athato brahma-jijnasa. This is real... What is the original source? This is real philosophy. What is that Absolute Truth? Everything is relative truth. What is the Absolute Truth? That is philosophy, Vedanta philosophy.
Syamasundara: That has social effects that could change the world?
Prabhupada: Yes. This, our whole Indian, Vedic civilization, is standing on Vedanta philosophy. And Bhagavata is explanation of Vedanta philosophy.
Syamasundara: So the source of everything is...
Prabhupada: Everything is there, ideal.
Syamasundara: So that's all today. Tomorrow we will discuss Mao Tse Tung, the Chinese Communist.
Prabhupada: Oh, Mao.
Syamasundara: Mao. (end)
