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Sep 4, 2002
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WASHINGTON - A sharply divided House voted Friday to order
President Bush to bring combat troops home from
Iraq next year, a victory for Democrats in an epic war-powers struggle and Congress' boldest challenge yet to the administration's policy.
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Ignoring a White House veto threat, lawmakers voted 218-212, mostly along party lines, for a binding war spending bill requiring that combat operations cease before September 2008, or earlier if the Iraqi government does not meet certain requirements. Democrats said it was time to heed the mandate of their election sweep last November, which gave them control of Congress.

"The American people have lost faith in the president's conduct of this war," said House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (news, bio, voting record), D-Calif. "The American people see the reality of the war, the president does not."

The vote, echoing clashes between lawmakers and the White House over the Vietnam War four decades ago, pushed the Democratic-led Congress a step closer to a constitutional collision with the wartime commander in chief. Bush has insisted that lawmakers allow more time for his strategy of sending nearly 30,000 additional troops to Iraq to work.

The roll call also marked a triumph for Pelosi., who labored in recent days to bring together a Democratic caucus deeply divided over the war. Some of the party's more liberal members voted against the bill because they said it would not end the war immediately, while more conservative Democrats said they were reluctant to take away flexibility from generals in the field.

Republicans were almost completely unified in their fight against the bill, which they said was tantamount to admitting failure in Iraq.

"The stakes in Iraq are too high and the sacrifices made by our military personnel and their families too great to be content with anything but success," said Republican Whip Roy Blunt (news, bio, voting record), R-Mo.

Voting for the bill were 216 Democrats and two Republicans — Wayne Gilchrest (news, bio, voting record) of Maryland and Walter Jones (news, bio, voting record) of North Carolina. Of the 212 members who opposed the bill, 198 were Republicans and 14 were Democrats.

The bill marks the first time Congress has used its budget power to try to end the war, now in its fifth year, by attaching the withdrawal requirements to a bill providing $124 billion to finance military operations in Iraq and
Afghanistan for the rest of this year.

Excluding the funds in the House-passed bill, Congress has so far provided more than $500 billion for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, including about $350 billion for Iraq alone, according to the nonpartisan Congressional Research Service. More than 3,200 U.S. troops have died in Iraq since war began in March 2003.

Across the Capitol, the Senate planned to debate as early as Monday legislation that also calls for a troop withdrawal — and has also drawn a Bush veto threat.

That $122 billion measure would require that Bush begin bringing home an unspecified number of troops within four months with the goal of getting all combat troops out by March 31, 2008. Unlike the House bill's 2008 date, the Senate deadline is not a firm requirement.

While Friday's House vote represented Democrats' latest ratcheting up of political pressure on Bush, they still face long odds of ultimately being able to force a troop withdrawal.

In the Senate, Democratic leaders will need 60 votes to prevail — a tall order because they will need about a dozen Republicans to join them.

And should lawmakers send Bush a compromise House-Senate measure, both chambers would need two-thirds majorities to override him — margins that neither seems likely to be able to muster.

In Friday's House debate, Democrats said it was time for them to begin influencing the war's path.

"The American public expects, the Congress of the United States, to do something," said Majority Leader Steny Hoyer (news, bio, voting record), D-Md. "Not simply to say 'yes' to failed policies, but to on their behalf, speak out and try to take us in a new direction."

"What we're trying to do in this legislation is force the Iraqis to fight their own war," said Rep. John Murtha (news, bio, voting record), D-Pa., who had helped write the bill.

With Democrats holding 233 seats and Republicans with 201, Democrats were able to afford only 15 "no" votes. Accordingly, Pelosi, and her leadership team spent days trying to convince members that the bill was Congress' best chance of forcing Bush to change course — an argument that was aided when they added more than $20 billion in domestic spending in an effort to lure votes.

They got a breakthrough Thursday when four of the bill's most consistent critics said they would not stand in its way. California Democrats Lynn Woolsey (news, bio, voting record), Diane Watson (news, bio, voting record), Barbara Lee (news, bio, voting record) and Maxine Waters (news, bio, voting record) said they would help round up support for the bill despite their intention to personally vote against it because it would not end the war immediately.

"Despite my steadfast opposition, I have told the speaker that I will work with her to obtain the needed votes to pass the supplemental, but that in the end I must vote my conscience," said Rep. Diane Watson, D-Calif.

The Iraq deadline created an unusual dynamic in the sharply partisan Congress. Bush loyalists teamed up with some anti-war liberals in opposing the measure. Conservatives said a firm deadline for the war would tie the hands of military commanders and embolden insurgents after the U.S. left Iraq, whereas many liberals said the bill would continue to bankroll an immoral war for more than a year.

"If you want peace, stop funding this war," said Rep.
Dennis Kucinich, D-Ohio.

"Approval of it means we vote to abandon Iraq at an arbitrary time no matter the situation, said Republican Rep. Ted Poe (news, bio, voting record). It's also "loaded with squealing pork that has nothing to do with our troops or the war," added Poe, R-Texas, referring to the billions of dollars added to the bill to fund domestic programs and attract votes.

But members said Pelosi was able to convince liberal members of her caucus that the legislation was their best shot at challenging Bush on the war even if it fails to become law.

source: www.yahoo.com
 
Jul 22, 2006
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Here is a bunch of money to fight the war. Here is a bunch more money for domestic projects totally unrelated to the war, but it was the only way we could get people to vote for it. But at the same time, don’t let this fool you; we really want to stop the war. Sorry doesn't make sense and anyone who falls for it deserves what they get and should probably be over in Iraq putting their life on the line for such ignorance.

Side note: How are people going to feel when the next president gets elected partially on a policy of ending the war, yet in reality continues if not escalates the war effort? Will they feel like idiots for believing it all?
 
Feb 8, 2006
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Deadpool said:
Here is a bunch of money to fight the war. Here is a bunch more money for domestic projects totally unrelated to the war, but it was the only way we could get people to vote for it. But at the same time, don’t let this fool you; we really want to stop the war. Sorry doesn't make sense and anyone who falls for it deserves what they get and should probably be over in Iraq putting their life on the line for such ignorance.

Side note: How are people going to feel when the next president gets elected partially on a policy of ending the war, yet in reality continues if not escalates the war effort? Will they feel like idiots for believing it all?
Good point.
 
May 13, 2002
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#4
Deadpool said:
Side note: How are people going to feel when the next president gets elected partially on a policy of ending the war, yet in reality continues if not escalates the war effort? Will they feel like idiots for believing it all?
The same way people felt during Vietnam after false promises of an end to the war? Maybe it will actually motivate the masses to actually get more involved...
 
Apr 29, 2005
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HYPHYHYPHERS said:
I SAY LEAVE THEM THERE...THEY ARE STUPID ENOUGH TO SIGN UP TO THE ARMED FORCES...WHAT IS THE IQ OF A JARHEAD??...LET THEM FINISH THERE DUMB JOB
Just remember those people fighting over there are doing so to protect the very freedom you ungratefully exercise to insult them! Terrorist don't give a fuck about you.
 
Mar 12, 2005
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germmtz said:
Just remember those people fighting over there are doing so to protect the very freedom you ungratefully exercise to insult them! Terrorist don't give a fuck about you.
LMAO!!!! HOW ARE THESE TERRORIST TAKING AWAY OUR FUCKING FREEDOMS, WHEN THE GAS PRICES AND COST OF LIVING HAVE SLOWLY AND GRADUALLY TAKEN MOST OF THE LOW TO MEDIUM INCOME CITIZEN'S FREEDOM?!! HAHA, YOU'RE A JOKE HOMIE, YOU NEED TO BRUSH UP ON YOUR KNOWLEDGE OF WHAT'S GOING ON WITH THE GOVERNMENT.
 
Aug 8, 2003
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^^^^
good shit stockton..

germmtz said:
Just remember those people fighting over there are doing so to protect the very freedom you ungratefully exercise to insult them! Terrorist don't give a fuck about you.
as he pointed out, when have our freedoms EVER been in jepordy by ANYBODY iraq?
 
Apr 29, 2005
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The Red Sin said:
LMAO!!!! HOW ARE THESE TERRORIST TAKING AWAY OUR FUCKING FREEDOMS, WHEN THE GAS PRICES AND COST OF LIVING HAVE SLOWLY AND GRADUALLY TAKEN MOST OF THE LOW TO MEDIUM INCOME CITIZEN'S FREEDOM?!! HAHA, YOU'RE A JOKE HOMIE, YOU NEED TO BRUSH UP ON YOUR KNOWLEDGE OF WHAT'S GOING ON WITH THE GOVERNMENT.
When citizens become so fear stricken and panic stricken that they are willing to give up fundamental freedoms provided by the Bill of Rights the Terrorists have succeeded. This is why the acts are coined terrorist. Terrorist: a person who tries to frighten people or governments into doing what he/she wants by using or threatening violence. The argument I assume you pose is the government’s responsibility for legislation that limits the freedoms of U.S. citizens. My argument is that this is the very aim of terrorist activities. Until we eradicate terrorism we are hopeless to eradicate the limitations we place on freedoms in response.

The economy is driven by overpopulation and the competition for scarce resources; and I agree is a secondary objective of the war efforts in Iraq. Fuel prices have a direct and casual effect on all consumer goods including construction materials and in turn have an effect on housing. Escalation has a residual effect on all classes. Unfortunately the lower and middle class are the citizens most greatly affected because the employment skills possessed offer little bargaining power for COLA adjustments.

The joke is the lack for real solutions to the problems facing our country and our economy. If you have an opinion you would like to share, speak on it; but miss me with the personal attacks. Name a time in history when the lower class citizens of this nation have not been oppressed in one form or another. I agree that this is disheartening. America is a superpower with the most advanced military in the world. The only hope of destroying America is to attack our roots and challenge or values. IMO the terrorist have done remarkably well.
 
Apr 29, 2005
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TROLL said:
as he pointed out, when have our freedoms EVER been in jepordy by ANYBODY iraq?
Iraq sponsored terrorism.

Saddam Hussein’s dictatorship provided headquarters, operating bases, training camps, and other support to terrorist groups fighting the governments of neighboring Turkey and Iran, as well as to hard-line Palestinian groups. During the 1991 Gulf War, Saddam commissioned several failed terrorist attacks on U.S. facilities. Prior to the 2003 invasion of Iraq, the State Department listed Iraq as a state sponsor of terrorism. The question of Iraq’s link to terrorism grew more urgent with Saddam’s suspected determination to develop weapons of mass destruction (WMD), which Bush administration officials feared he might share with terrorists who could launch devastating attacks against the United States.

Some Iraqi militants trained in Taliban-run Afghanistan helped Ansar al-Islam, an Islamist militia based in a lawless part of northeast Iraq. The camps of Ansar fighters, who clashed repeatedly with anti-Saddam Kurds, were bombed in the early days of Operation Iraqi Freedom. In February 2003, Secretary of State Colin Powell told the UN Security Council that Iraq was harboring a terrorist cell led by Abu Musab Zarqawi, a suspected al-Qaeda affiliate and chemical and biological weapons specialist. Powell said al-Zarqawi had both planned the October 2002 assassination of a U.S. diplomat in Jordan and set up a camp in Ansar al-Islam’s territory to train terrorists in the use of chemical weapons. Powell added that senior Iraqi and al-Qaeda leaders had met at least eight times since the early 1990s.
 

HERESY

THE HIDDEN HAND...
Apr 25, 2002
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#16
Iraq sponsored terrorism.

Saddam Hussein’s dictatorship provided headquarters, operating bases, training camps, and other support to terrorist groups fighting the governments of neighboring Turkey and Iran, as well as to hard-line Palestinian groups. During the 1991 Gulf War, Saddam commissioned several failed terrorist attacks on U.S. facilities. Prior to the 2003 invasion of Iraq, the State Department listed Iraq as a state sponsor of terrorism. The question of Iraq’s link to terrorism grew more urgent with Saddam’s suspected determination to develop weapons of mass destruction (WMD), which Bush administration officials feared he might share with terrorists who could launch devastating attacks against the United States.

Some Iraqi militants trained in Taliban-run Afghanistan helped Ansar al-Islam, an Islamist militia based in a lawless part of northeast Iraq. The camps of Ansar fighters, who clashed repeatedly with anti-Saddam Kurds, were bombed in the early days of Operation Iraqi Freedom. In February 2003, Secretary of State Colin Powell told the UN Security Council that Iraq was harboring a terrorist cell led by Abu Musab Zarqawi, a suspected al-Qaeda affiliate and chemical and biological weapons specialist. Powell said al-Zarqawi had both planned the October 2002 assassination of a U.S. diplomat in Jordan and set up a camp in Ansar al-Islam’s territory to train terrorists in the use of chemical weapons. Powell added that senior Iraqi and al-Qaeda leaders had met at least eight times since the early 1990s.
Where did you get this information?
 
Apr 29, 2005
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HERESY said:
Where did you get this information?
http://www.cfr.org/publication/9513/

Council on Foreign Relations
The Council is an independent membership organization and a nonpartisan think tank and publisher, with headquarters in New York, offices in Washington, DC, and programs nationwide. It has no affiliation with the U.S. government or any other government.

The Council on Foreign Relations was founded in 1921 by businessmen, bankers, and lawyers determined to keep the United States engaged in the world. Today, the Council is composed of men and women from all walks of international life and from all parts of the United States dedicated to the belief that the nation’s peace and prosperity are firmly linked to that of the rest of the world. From this flows the Council’s mission: to better understand the world and the foreign policy choices facing the United States and other governments.
 

HERESY

THE HIDDEN HAND...
Apr 25, 2002
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#18
A bit of advice...next time cite the source or people will think you are passing the information off as your own. In addition, you should probably refrain from using biased sources (such as the CFR.)

Now lets get into something you stated earlier:

When citizens become so fear stricken and panic stricken that they are willing to give up fundamental freedoms provided by the Bill of Rights the Terrorists have succeeded.
No, the government has FAILED, and when you constantly market fear to the general population, you have to question if Hegelian Dialectic is at play.

This is why the acts are coined terrorist.
But who is to say the acts are terrorist acts?

Terrorist: a person who tries to frighten people or governments into doing what he/she wants by using or threatening violence.
If we use your definition the united states government would also be considered terrorists.

My argument is that this is the very aim of terrorist activities.Until we eradicate terrorism we are hopeless to eradicate the limitations we place on freedoms in response.
How can you eradicate an ideology or fighting technique? Do you fail to realize that these so-called terrorists are acting in response to mistreatment they have suffered at the hands of the american government or Israel?
 

HERESY

THE HIDDEN HAND...
Apr 25, 2002
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#19
germmtz said:
http://www.cfr.org/publication/9513/

Council on Foreign Relations
The Council is an independent membership organization and a nonpartisan think tank and publisher, with headquarters in New York, offices in Washington, DC, and programs nationwide. It has no affiliation with the U.S. government or any other government.

The Council on Foreign Relations was founded in 1921 by businessmen, bankers, and lawyers determined to keep the United States engaged in the world. Today, the Council is composed of men and women from all walks of international life and from all parts of the United States dedicated to the belief that the nation’s peace and prosperity are firmly linked to that of the rest of the world. From this flows the Council’s mission: to better understand the world and the foreign policy choices facing the United States and other governments.

I know what the CFR is. You don't need to give me any info about the organization.
 
Apr 29, 2005
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HERESY said:
A bit of advice...next time cite the source or people will think you are passing the information off as your own. In addition, you should probably refrain from using biased sources (such as the CFR.)
Will do thanks. The fundamental nature of politics is biased and the perspective will vary accordingly. I made an attempt to select a source that supports my position; I would expect the same from any counterargument.
HERESY said:
No, the government has FAILED, and when you constantly market fear to the general population, you have to question if Hegelian Dialectic is at play.
Reverting to conspiracy theory, offers no viable solution to the problem.
HERESY said:
But who is to say the acts are terrorist acts?
The public at large and anyone that feels victimized by such acts.
HERESY said:
If we use your definition the united states government would also be considered terrorists.
Yes, as would street level gangs and law enforcement. This is a timeless debate.
HERESY said:
How can you eradicate an ideology or fighting technique? Do you fail to realize that these so-called terrorists are acting in response to mistreatment they have suffered at the hands of the american government or Israel?
By impeaching the government powers currently in place and replacing them with governments of our choosing. Destroy terrorist training camps, facilities, and weapons of mass destruction. Be completely intolerant to these values and those in support of them.