BIG 12 Football Bitches............

[xpanther206]

Part of the nod the SEC has over the Pac-10 (and everybody else for that matter) is a natural geographic recruiting advantage. The SEC area has something that no other conference has : A HUGE NON-URBAN AFRICAN AMERICAN POPULATION (which in my opinion is the strongest production correlator with football):

The SEC has a huge advantage over other conferences in that the best high school football in the country is played in the SEC's backyard. Here's a map of NFL Players From 2006 home states, w/ the numbers adjusted to be a "rate" so you can get an idea of just how concentrated talent is and thereby make an estimate for how good the overall quality of football in those states is:

 

[xpanther206]

SEC a fast paced conference? I dont think so. They play more at a level of the Big 10 in the regards to playing bigtime defense and running the ball.

THe only conference that compares to the Pac-10 play wise would be the WAC.

Well part of the reason the SEC has that reputation for speed is that it does put guys in the NFL at the speed positions at a slightly greater rate than any other conference in the country. 15.5% of speed position NFL players in 2006 were from the SEC (versus 14.8% of all NFL players, so slightly skewed toward speed). The SEC doesn't get enough credit for power as well, they produce 17.3% of NFL power players as compared to 14.8 percent of NFL players overall (so disproportionately power). Here's position & position-type broken down by conference from the same database I've posted earlier.

Compare the percentage of a positon or position type with the percentage of the conferences representation in the NFL as a whole (bottom line) to get how much a conference "does" a certain kind of player.

 

[Robby2Slobby]

Thats some great research. Props on that.

 

[chronicicetea]

SEC a fast paced conference? I dont think so. They play more at a level of the Big 10 in the regards to playing bigtime defense and running the ball.

THe only conference that compares to the Pac-10 play wise would be the WAC.

most years you would be right but this year theres been a lot of teams in the SEC scoring a lot of points. the defenses havent really been doing their usual shit. shits major overrated for sure, maybe its just the defenses.

 

[BAMMER]

Big 10 is usually solid,this year they are piss poor.Big12 is always a joke...minus Neb-OU

 

[Robby2Slobby]

Nebraska is a joke this year. You might have meant Texas, though. I hope.

Something I just found out though, is that Michigan has the fourth longest winning streak in college football.

Not really relevant, but funny considering how the start of the season panned out..

They could finish with the longest streak in c.football if they win out.

 

[chronicicetea]

Nebraska is a joke this year. You might have meant Texas, though. I hope.

Something I just found out though, is that Michigan has the fourth longest winning streak in college football.

Not really relevant, but funny considering how the start of the season panned out..

They could finish with the longest streak in c.football if they win out.

dont forget 39-7. i know what youre saying though. that would be fucked up if we had to see oregon michigan rematch in rose bowl. another bend over.

 

[JesterMIR]

LOL at SEC's OOC schedule. I've never bought into the hype that the SEC is the best conference.

The problem with Oklahoma since Stoops has been there, they get too cocky when they are on a streak. They ran up the score and then they get to Colorado and they get beat. They haven't been the same since. I don't know where Kansas being in the top 10 came from. Same with Missiouri. Nebraska hasn't been shit for years. Callahan is on the verge of getting fired.

 

[Fucky McFuckerson]

@xpanther296

I have you on ignore, becuase all you do is spew complete garbage in your posts. I decided to see why you posted 3 times in a row just out of curiosity. Great research.

However, this has NOTHING to do with ANYTHING abou the SEC being OVERRATED. The media HYPES them up, pre-ranks them high, they play SHITTY OOC's to inflate their records, and then all of a sudden its #3 LSU vs. #6Florida. Well, when you play teams like Chatannoga-TN and Willaim and Mary, you tend to win big and have a 3-0 start.

The worst part about it, is the SEC is ARROGANT, as evident here:

http://www.secsportsfan.com/

They are the BEST conference becuase the MEDIA plays its part and MAKES them the best. On CBS every Saturday, ther is a SEC game...the only college football related entity to have the same is Notre Dame, who has a contract with NBC.

I dont care how many NFL players are from the SEC, that has no relevence to WHY the SEC is overrated...and severly so. But, i can play that game to:

Guess which 2 schools have the most NFL talent in the NFL right now? HINT: niether are SEC schools.

Guess who has put the most players in the NFL all time? Guess what...the SEC doesnt crack the top 5.

The two winningest coaches are from the ACC and Big Ten.

The school with the most NC's doenst even belong to a fuckin conference, and a Pac-10 team and an SEC team are tied for second.

Excluding football, guess which conference has the most championships in EVERY other sport? Thats right...the Pac-10...and by a HUGE amount.

Im not saying that the SEC doesnt have good teams, becuase thats obivously NOT the case. However, the SEC has JUST as many cellar dwellers as the rest of the conferences.

Conclusion:

THe SEC is rich with saturation from playing a weak ass schedule and the media sucks it up like a vacuum. Meanwhile, the West gets overlooked...hell, some of the voters on the AP poll even admitted to NEVER even watching Oregon play a game this year...are you kidding me?

 

[Fucky McFuckerson]

most years you would be right but this year theres been a lot of teams in the SEC scoring a lot of points. the defenses havent really been doing their usual shit. shits major overrated for sure, maybe its just the defenses.

I agree. teams like Florida, Kentucky and Tenessee have been high flying as of late, but teams like Alabama, Arkansas and Auburn luv to pound out 200 yards on the ground and win 10-7.

 

[Fucky McFuckerson]

LOL at SEC's OOC schedule.

The problem with Oklahoma since Stoops has been there, they get too cocky when they are on a streak. They ran up the score and then they get to Colorado and they get beat. They haven't been the same since. I don't know where Kansas being in the top 10 came from. Same with Missiouri. Nebraska hasn't been shit for years. Callahan is on the verge of getting fired.

Kansas has been a bubble team for the last 2 years. Mizzou is always solid and had a good team when Brad Smith was at the helm.

Braska just isnt the same team from the early-mid 90's...and i dont think they ever will be again.

 

[Robby2Slobby]

dont forget 39-7. i know what youre saying though. that would be fucked up if we had to see oregon michigan rematch in rose bowl. another bend over.

That game was majorly a downer from the week before.. They already knew the season was over and there was no incentive to get up for that game. If there is a rematch in the Rose Bowl, it'd be a much closer game.. I still think Michigan would struggle though, but they have been doing very well against spread offenses since that game. Getting better with each game they played against one.

 

[xpanther206]

However, this has NOTHING to do with ANYTHING abou the SEC being OVERRATED. The media HYPES them up, pre-ranks them high, they play SHITTY OOC's to inflate their records, and then all of a sudden its #3 LSU vs. #6Florida. Well, when you play teams like Chatannoga-TN and Willaim and Mary, you tend to win big and have a 3-0 start.

I don't necessarily agree/disagree: But you have to show me, have the courage to break it all down, bang out a spreadsheet attempting to answer those claims. You know I'm a research guy, I'm not big on opinions w/out some work and hard facts put into them. That's the difference between you and me, I have the courage and ability to break stuff down.

The worst part about it, is the SEC is ARROGANT

I Agree : They are extremely arrogant. It's irrelevent football wise, however.

They are the BEST conference becuase the MEDIA plays its part and MAKES them the best. On CBS every Saturday, ther is a SEC game...the only college football related entity to have the same is Notre Dame, who has a contract with NBC.

I Agree : This definitely helps the conference immensely. I wish the Pac-10 had a better TV contract. But I don't think it diminishes the quality of the football in any way, or means that it's overrated in anyway.

I dont care how many NFL players are from the SEC, that has no relevence to WHY the SEC is overrated...and severly so. But, i can play that game to:

Guess which 2 schools have the most NFL talent in the NFL right now? HINT: niether are SEC schools.

I Disagree W/ Your Point : Looking at 2 schools out of 69 BCS Conference teams is no way to evaluate NFL player production. The figures I posted look at 69 of 69 BCS Conference teams.

Guess who has put the most players in the NFL all time? Guess what...the SEC doesnt crack the top 5.

I Disagree W/ Your Point : Data from the 1960s is not relavent to today's college football scene. And once again, it is better to look at 69 of 69 BCS conference teams rather than 5 of 69 BCS conference teams when comparing the strengths of their conferences.

The two winningest coaches are from the ACC and Big Ten.

I Disagree W/ Your Point: Once again, to evaluate entire conferences by two coaches when dozens have passed through during their tenures doesn't work. Secondly, it makes your argument look terrible anyways b/c those two coaches have struggled relative to their incredible standards against the SEC:

Bowden @ FSU vs. non-current SEC coming into 07 : 255-56-2 = .820
Bowden @ FSU vs. current SEC coming into 07 : 38-25-2 = .603

Paterno @ PSU vs. non-current SEC coming into 07 : 350-107-3 = .766
Paterno @ PSU vs. current SEC coming into 07 : 13-14 = .481

The school with the most NC's doenst even belong to a fuckin conference, and a Pac-10 team and an SEC team are tied for second.

I Disagree W/ Your Point : Once again, evaluating conferences of 10 or 12 teams with the achievements of 1 or 2 is statistically insiginificant. You wouldn't do well in college stats.

Excluding football, guess which conference has the most championships in EVERY other sport? Thats right...the Pac-10...and by a HUGE amount.

I Agree : Irrelevent however, we are talking about one particular sport and it is football. You are talking about a "Sears Cup" of conferences. Do you really want to use an award that Stanford has won literally 14 of the past 15 years as an argument?

Im not saying that the SEC doesnt have good teams, becuase thats obivously NOT the case. However, the SEC has JUST as many cellar dwellers as the rest of the conferences.

By definition, every conference has 1 "cellar dweller," except conferences that are split, where they have 2. In college football, b/c everybody plays in their conferences and is relatively, save for 3-4 non-cons a year, segregated from the rest of the country, you have to speculate. And for me, it is about estimating the overall talent level of the conference, and the SEC and the states it serves, puts players into the NFL at the highest rate.

THe SEC is rich with saturation from playing a weak ass schedule and the media sucks it up like a vacuum. Meanwhile, the West gets overlooked...hell, some of the voters on the AP poll even admitted to NEVER even watching Oregon play a game this year...are you kidding me?

You're preaching to the choir when it comes to the east coast bias, I feel you. I've had to put the Pac-10 up against all the other conferences now that I'm living in the Midwest. But I won't put the Pac-10 up against the SEC on a year in year out basis, I just won't do it for the statistical evidence I've produced.

I would encourage you to put some time and energy into a research piece dealing with non-con schedules over the past decade, I'd be curious to see what you come up with. I won't take your claims without supporting evidence, comprehensive evidence that considers the conferences as a whole, not just a team here and a team there.

I'm a west coast native, Washington Husky fan born and raised, but I just can't put the Pac-10 up against the SEC in good conscience. To the rest of the conferences, however, that's a different story.

 

[xpanther206]

That game was majorly a downer from the week before.. They already knew the season was over and there was no incentive to get up for that game. If there is a rematch in the Rose Bowl, it'd be a much closer game.. I still think Michigan would struggle though, but they have been doing very well against spread offenses since that game. Getting better with each game they played against one.

I saw a very good piece on Versus network about a HS rivalry between Muskegon & Rockford in Michigan. It was a great show, looked like an awesome rivalry. I know Muskegon is a football factory, but those farmboys from Rockford can ball too! They ended up beating Muskegon in the game the show profiled.

Good HS football in Michigan, not quite on the same level as in the South, but I think that with Ohio and the small-population states of Nebraska & Iowa, it's the best in the Midwest.

 

[Fucky McFuckerson]

I don't necessarily agree/disagree: But you have to show me, have the courage to break it all down, bang out a spreadsheet attempting to answer those claims. You know I'm a research guy, I'm not big on opinions w/out some work and hard facts put into them. That's the difference between you and me, I have the courage and ability to break stuff down.

Show you? Look it up, dude. I didnt just pull that stat out of my ass...i dont have the time to show the SEC's OOC schedule and the Pac's OOC schedule. I already did that on the ESPN.com board 2 months ago and it tok me a long time to do. All I know is, the SEC played MORE Div 1-AA teams than the Pac did. Proof is in the pudding.

I Agree : This definitely helps the conference immensely. I wish the Pac-10 had a better TV contract. But I don't think it diminishes the quality of the football in any way, or means that it's overrated in anyway.

And this is where youre wrong. Becuase the SEC gets MORE coverage than the Pac, the talent gets exposed and the teams get put on display. A 5-3 Florida team is in the top 25, but a 5-3 Cal team is NOT. Both teams were pre-ranked in the top 10. You figure it out.

I Disagree W/ Your Point : Looking at 2 schools out of 69 BCS Conference teams is no way to evaluate NFL player production. The figures I posted look at 69 of 69 BCS Conference teams.

Thats not what i was getting at. Miami and FSU both have the MOST players in the NFL of any school ON NFL ROSTERS RIGHT NOW.

I Disagree W/ Your Point : Data from the 1960s is not relavent to today's college football scene. And once again, it is better to look at 69 of 69 BCS conference teams rather than 5 of 69 BCS conference teams when comparing the strengths of their conferences.

Again, this has nothing to do with anything. Notre Dame has put the most players in the NFL EVER. USC is second.

I Disagree W/ Your Point: Once again, to evaluate entire conferences by two coaches when dozens have passed through during their tenures doesn't work. Secondly, it makes your argument look terrible anyways b/c those two coaches have struggled relative to their incredible standards against the SEC:

Bowden @ FSU vs. non-current SEC coming into 07 : 255-56-2 = .820
Bowden @ FSU vs. current SEC coming into 07 : 38-25-2 = .603

Paterno @ PSU vs. non-current SEC coming into 07 : 350-107-3 = .766
Paterno @ PSU vs. current SEC coming into 07 : 13-14 = .481

Again, who cares? Bowden and Paterno are the winningest coaches of all time...and neither are from the SEC.

I Disagree W/ Your Point : Once again, evaluating conferences of 10 or 12 teams with the achievements of 1 or 2 is statistically insiginificant. You wouldn't do well in college stats.

And again youre ignoring the big picture and trying to break it down into irrelevent facts that mean squat.

NCAA RECOGNIZED NC's:

Notre Dame - 15
USC - 11
Alabama - 11

I Agree : Irrelevent however, we are talking about one particular sport and it is football. You are talking about a "Sears Cup" of conferences. Do you really want to use an award that Stanford has won literally 14 of the past 15 years as an argument?

I was merely showing you that I can put up facts that have nothing to do with the topic, just like you.:ermm:

By definition, every conference has 1 "cellar dweller," except conferences that are split, where they have 2. In college football, b/c everybody plays in their conferences and is relatively, save for 3-4 non-cons a year, segregated from the rest of the country, you have to speculate. And for me, it is about estimating the overall talent level of the conference, and the SEC and the states it serves, puts players into the NFL at the highest rate.

Thats great and all, but again, what the FUCK does this have to do with the SEC being overrated? Youre going to a whole other topic here. Good for the SEC...you would think with all that talent, they wouldnt be so overrated...so i guess in reality, YOUR meaningless argument actually goes AGAINST you.

Cellar dwellers of the SEC:

Vanderbilt
Ole Miss
Miss St
South Carolina(save for their overhypled #6 ranking 4 weeks ago).
Kentucky(save for this YEAR [even though they are sliping back to reality], but is a basketball school like Arizona)





I would encourage you to put some time and energy into a research piece dealing with non-con schedules over the past decade, I'd be curious to see what you come up with. I won't take your claims without supporting evidence, comprehensive evidence that considers the conferences as a whole, not just a team here and a team there.

I could care less if you dont take my "opinions" seriously or not, and i dont care to do that research becuase i dont have the TIME to do it. If you want to know, do it yourself. When you watch as much college football as I do, you SEE it week in and week out. Its no secret that the SEC gets heat for their OOC's...which alot are even HOME games.

Ive had this discussion with Notes (who is an AVID Gators fan) many times and he AGREES with me about the SEC...real recognize real...

I'm a west coast native, Washington Husky fan born and raised, but I just can't put the Pac-10 up against the SEC in good conscience. To the rest of the conferences, however, that's a different story.[/QUOTE]

The SEC may be good as a whole, but they are still overhyped and overrated, plain & simple. I wouldnt put them above or below the Pac or even the Big 10 for that matter.

 

[xpanther206]

I think the best way to get at this issue of conference strength is to take every BCS conference and put it up against every other BCS conference in head to head matchups every single year. So it would be something like:

Pac 10 vs. Big 12, 2007 =
Pac 10 vs. Big Ten, 2007 =
Pac 10 vs. ACC, 2007 =
Pac 10 vs. Big East, 2007 =
Pac 10 vs. SEC, 2007 =
Big 12 vs. Big Ten, 2007 =
.......

and so on until you've completed the combinations matrix, and you do it for maybe the last 10 years minimum, so that you've got enough data to be statistically relevant.

The biggest limitation of ^that^ method:
It doesn't account for the type of matchups, i.e. maybe most of the Big 12 vs Big Ten matchups pitted bottom dwellers from the Big 12 against Ohio State & Michigan, so it wouldn't really be fair to make general conclusions about the two conferences.

The closest thing to being able to 100% accurately compare two conferences is to do something like the Big Ten vs ACC challenge for hoops, where you have the #1 against the #1, #2 against the #2 and so on. That's just an awesome way to do it, but in football that'll never happen unfortunately.

So we're left to speculate. And b/c these teams don't come close to playing each other, it's not like the pros in that respect, it's difficult to get real hard quantitative proof. So that's why you go with what you see, and when I watch SEC football, I see it as a sport being played on a higher level. And another part of my opinion of the SEC as being superior to the Pac-10 is that I believe the high school football in the south is far superior to that of the West Coast.

I feel you on the time thing, I would love to do that study I just posted up there but it would take some time.

 

[xpanther206]

And this isn't directly related to football, but in terms of the overall "culture" of the sport, there is no comparison. The SEC atmosphere is by far the best in the nation, with the hard quantitative statistic to support that being AVG Attendance, they win that one every year.

Even the bottom dwellers in the SEC have big ass stadiums that are packed every weekend. That's a far cry from Washington State or Stanford or even Cal when they were struggling.

But if you want to claim that the ^above^ isn't relevant to the discussion in the same way I said the Sears Cup wasn't relevant, I'd respect that point of view. But if I was a foreigner with no allegiance to any particular team, I would choose to go to the SEC game over the Pac-10 game b/c of this cultural stuff I've brought up.

 

[chronicicetea]

And this isn't directly related to football, but in terms of the overall "culture" of the sport, there is no comparison. The SEC atmosphere is by far the best in the nation, with the hard quantitative statistic to support that being AVG Attendance, they win that one every year.

Even the bottom dwellers in the SEC have big ass stadiums that are packed every weekend. That's a far cry from Washington State or Stanford or even Cal when they were struggling.

But if you want to claim that the ^above^ isn't relevant to the discussion in the same way I said the Sears Cup wasn't relevant, I'd respect that point of view. But if I was a foreigner with no allegiance to any particular team, I would choose to go to the SEC game over the Pac-10 game b/c of this cultural stuff I've brought up.

man, fuck those pussy sec crowds.

"Autzen is renowned for its crowd noise. On October 27, 2007, during a 24-17 defeat of the USC Trojans, a record crowd of 59,277 fans was recorded at 127.2 decibels (louder than a jet taking off).[5] A similarly-loud 31-27 upset of third-ranked Michigan in 2003 prompted a Michigan Daily columnist to write[6]

“ Autzen's 59,000 strong make the Big House sound like a pathetic whimper. It's louder than The Swamp at Florida, The Shoe in Columbus, and Death Valley at Louisiana State. Autzen Stadium is where great teams go to die. ”

Michigan coach Lloyd Carr later said that Autzen Stadium was the loudest stadium he'd ever been in.[7]

In 2006, a Sporting News columnist named Autzen the most intimidating college football stadium in the nation.[8]


Examples of Decibel Sounds for comparison:
Weakest sound heard 0dB
Whisper Quiet Library 30dB
Normal conversation (3-5') 60-70dB
Telephone dial tone 80dB
City Traffic (inside car) 85dB
Train whistle at 500', Truck Traffic 90dB
Subway train at 200' 95dB
Level at which sustained exposure may result in hearing loss 90 - 95dB
Power mower at 3' 107dB
Snowmobile, Motorcycle 100dB
Power saw at 3' 110dB
Sandblasting, Loud Rock Concert 115dB
Pain begins 125dB
Pneumatic riveter at 4' 125dB
Even short term exposure can cause permanent damage - Loudest recommended exposure WITH hearing protection 140dB
Sound of Oregon Fans at the Oregon vs U$C game on 10/27/07 at Autzen Stadium 127.2dB
Jet engine at 100', Gun Blast 140dB
Death of hearing tissue 180dB
Loudest sound possible 194dB"

 

[xpanther206]

man, fuck those pussy sec crowds.

"Autzen is renowned for its crowd noise. On October 27, 2007, during a 24-17 defeat of the USC Trojans, a record crowd of 59,277 fans was recorded at 127.2 decibels (louder than a jet taking off).[5] A similarly-loud 31-27 upset of third-ranked Michigan in 2003 prompted a Michigan Daily columnist to write[6]

“ Autzen's 59,000 strong make the Big House sound like a pathetic whimper. It's louder than The Swamp at Florida, The Shoe in Columbus, and Death Valley at Louisiana State. Autzen Stadium is where great teams go to die. ”

Michigan coach Lloyd Carr later said that Autzen Stadium was the loudest stadium he'd ever been in.[7]

In 2006, a Sporting News columnist named Autzen the most intimidating college football stadium in the nation.[8]


Examples of Decibel Sounds for comparison:
Weakest sound heard 0dB
Whisper Quiet Library 30dB
Normal conversation (3-5') 60-70dB
Telephone dial tone 80dB
City Traffic (inside car) 85dB
Train whistle at 500', Truck Traffic 90dB
Subway train at 200' 95dB
Level at which sustained exposure may result in hearing loss 90 - 95dB
Power mower at 3' 107dB
Snowmobile, Motorcycle 100dB
Power saw at 3' 110dB
Sandblasting, Loud Rock Concert 115dB
Pain begins 125dB
Pneumatic riveter at 4' 125dB
Even short term exposure can cause permanent damage - Loudest recommended exposure WITH hearing protection 140dB
Sound of Oregon Fans at the Oregon vs U$C game on 10/27/07 at Autzen Stadium 127.2dB
Jet engine at 100', Gun Blast 140dB
Death of hearing tissue 180dB
Loudest sound possible 194dB"

Autzen is loud, I've seen 3 games there, all w/ bowl ramifications. It's extremely loud actually.

But it's not as loud as Death Valley @ LSU or Neyland in Knoxville, the only 2 SEC stadiums I've ever seen a game. I am sure it is louder than the bulk of the rest of the conference however.

It's also not as loud as Seahawks Stadium, but that's the NFL so whatever.

 

[Fucky McFuckerson]

Autzen staduim, db wise, is the loudest in the nation. It registered at 128 Db's for the Sun Devil/Duck game 2 weeks ago.

However, Husky stadium measured at 130 db's in a game vs i beleive Braska over a decade ago....

Beaver Stadium is the 2nd largest stadium in the nation, and it isnt even in the top 10 of loudest stadiums.

Lane stadium in in the top 3 for loudest stadiums, often it is listed 1 or 2.

The Big House can range anywhere from 1-10.

But, these are all mostly OPINION, as you will find ESPN, SI, Sout.com, and various blogs all have their own resons as to WHY one stadium is louder than the next.