Alternatives to the Police?

[ColdBlooded]

My point that i am trying to get across is your ability to convince your community to protect themselves instead of the police defending them. National polls show that people are satisified with police activitiy..

National polls show that people aren’t satisfied with police activity too.
Polls are manipulated especially hypothetical message board polls.

yes, sure it is.

the population organizing itself as an armed force has only become impossible since the split into classes.

Why would a person already satisified with the police want to risk their own safety and free time with family and friends.

They wouldn’t, because the “satisfied” are the type of people that benefit from armed state repression. Those dissatisfied are the ones who are repressed and brutalized regularly and those that would benefit most from the elimination of the tool of state repression and the state all together.

My point was that everyone has different interest...especially within a community. we all got neighbors who do not get along.

Actually everyone shares basic interests. The purpose of the police is not to serve individual interest, but to serve and protect the community as a whole. Neighbors may not “get along”, but it is still in both of their best interests for their neighbor to not be the victim of crime. Because you disagree with your neighbor it would be good for them to be murdered, why? Because you disagree with your neighbor it would be good for them to be robbed, why?

Whenever you have people involved in anything...expect screw ups(dirty cops). To expect anything to work in pure form such as the police department is not realistic.

It is in the difference between a democratic organization responsive to the needs of the community, controlled and manned by the people of the community and a repressive armed wing of the state. In which do you think would be more likely to foster corrupt and brutal activities? In which do you think if there were screw ups would be easier to find solutions? If a cop were to live on your block and his job was dependent on the block’s satisfaction with his job, don’t you think he’d be less likely to over react and shoot your neighbor or sodomize him with a broom stick? If he were to do such a thing how long do you think the neighborhood would stand for it and allow him to keep his job, let alone keep living in the community?

If nothing else (but there is plenty else) a community civil defense group would be more responsive and much more easily held accountable for it’s actions and in its duty to protect the community.

This seems to be most peoples problem with the police because they serve as the state's repressive function. There is a great article by a French Sociologist named Foucault called "Governmentality" which traces the evolution of the Western nation state from the Middle Ages to the Present which also details the role and shortcomings of the police system in Western society which I will try and dig up.

The state is repressive in nature, the police, armed as they are, function as a tool of repression.

You have civil defense communities in Africa, the Middle East and other places called mititias. They are run by the community, manned by people who live in the community, and in some cases run the community quite effectivly. The problem is that the community may not appreciate the role or changing ideology of the militia and create competing militias which results in civil war. Or you have people from outside of a community treated differently than those inside of the community which isnt exactly fair.

Actually what you’re talking about are neither community defense organizations nor militias. You’re talking about militarily armed gangs / criminal paramilitary groups / death squads, though cnn might, in their simplicity, call them militias. They aren’t run by the community or manned by the people who live in the community and their “effectiveness” is debatable and solely based upon brutality, criminal activities, and repression (sounds like cops).

Community civil defense committees as I propose would be independent of the civilian militia(which is also another good idea that should be implemented, but talked about in a different thread), though community members could/should/would be members of both groups, their function and purpose are separate and should remain so.

ColdBlooded you posted a short response and I was curious if you could elaborate on how a community civil defense committee would be different.

Different from what? The police? A militia? What you were calling a militia?

 

[swords]

interesting topic.. I think most people that are unsatisfied by cops are because they represent a different "higher" society than those who are usually arrested/harrased whatever.. people from the burbs are generally more satisfied because they are his actual peers.. More regulation and law enforcement needs to come from within one's own community. its more democratic

 

[Hutch]

community civil defense committies, run by the community, maned by the people who live in the community, directly subject to the community

police are the armed branch of the state, domestic cultural and class imperialist soldiers, agents of repression

You would have done well in the French revolution - ColdBlooded la Fayette, commander of the newly formed United States National Guard. Viva la revolution!!!

 

[reza]

National polls show that people aren’t satisfied with police activity too.
Polls are manipulated especially hypothetical message board polls

I can give you the link to the polls where i found those results.

They wouldn’t, because the “satisfied” are the type of people that benefit from armed state repression. Those dissatisfied are the ones who are repressed and brutalized regularly and those that would benefit most from the elimination of the tool of state repression and the state all together

Of course the dissatisfied will benefit the most from changing to your defense communities. But again, biggest challenges will be persuading those that are "satisfied" to jump on board with your plan. According to my polls, they are the majority. Americans are so uptight with making changes if they do not have a passionate need to make an adjustment.

Actually everyone shares basic interests. The purpose of the police is not to serve individual interest, but to serve and protect the community as a whole. Neighbors may not “get along”, but it is still in both of their best interests for their neighbor to not be the victim of crime. Because you disagree with your neighbor it would be good for them to be murdered, why? Because you disagree with your neighbor it would be good for them to be robbed, why?

No doubt that the authorities main interest should be directed to the whole community. I was referring to the different interests that individuals have once their in power(controllers of the community). Hard to generate same interest when it involves power, promotion...etc. They are individual humans so they will have their own needs(good and bad) when in control. This will be found in any organzation, corporation, social class....etc. Greed can be found anywhere! i'd say the civil defense communties will be susceptible to their own corruption.

It is in the difference between a democratic organization responsive to the needs of the community, controlled and manned by the people of the community and a repressive armed wing of the state. In which do you think would be more likely to foster corrupt and brutal activities?

Hard to answer this question since i have never seen/read a real life example of a defense community. Have you ever lived in a civil defense community? I know you probably read about it, but have you experienced it in action? I do know that our police government is not perfect and is liable for corruption. Heck...we've seen it with LAPD.

 

[XxtraMannish]

I dont think there is a viable alternative to a police force, but I think a community based group that could monitor the police and make sure they are clean and not creating problems or doing disservice to the communities they work in would be a great idea. Something along the lines of the Black Panther Party.

 

[WHITE DEVIL]

Polls are manipulated especially hypothetical message board polls.

I've come with Pew Polls, UN polls, Reporters Without Borders polls, etc. It seems people here basically just invalidate anything disagree with.

For example CB, you claim Castro is not repressive and Cuba is a free state/society, and all the anti-Castro voices oppressed are simply US insurgents, no matter how many articles, links, memoirs, etc. are out for inspection online. There are even works by Pro-Castro, Pro-Cuba voices that highlight the same issues and voice the exact same concerns as the "US Paramilitaries". But this is a story you do not wish to be told / do not agree with / dont care about, so a poll, a personal story, an interview, etc. means shit to you.

the population organizing itself as an armed force has only become impossible since the split into classes.

A classless society does not exist. Anywhere. From the most complex industrial societies to the most essentialized subsistence cultures, a classless society does not and has never existed.

They wouldn’t, because the “satisfied” are the type of people that benefit from armed state repression. Those dissatisfied are the ones who are repressed and brutalized regularly and those that would benefit most from the elimination of the tool of state repression and the state all together.

You say they would benefit from the elimination of the state, yet the system you propose is very state-heavy. When you say the 'elmination', are you saying the elimination of that particular state or the concept of the state?

Neighbors may not “get along”, but it is still in both of their best interests for their neighbor to not be the victim of crime. Because you disagree with your neighbor it would be good for them to be murdered, why? Because you disagree with your neighbor it would be good for them to be robbed, why?

This sort of high-level reasoning does not exist in the minds of many, especially among everyday Americans. A majority of people would probably say yes to the second question, and a small but sizable amount would probably say yes to the first in an honest, condifdential poll - assuming a specific person in lieu of a random "neighbor". In addition, most people can not be relied upon to think in a communal sense.

It is in the difference between a democratic organization responsive to the needs of the community, controlled and manned by the people of the community and a repressive armed wing of the state.

Democracy does not equal justice. How many genuinely democratic institutions do we enjoy in America today? What is the general awareness level of the average American on news, current events, law, and civic issues?

In which do you think would be more likely to foster corrupt and brutal activities? In which do you think if there were screw ups would be easier to find solutions? If a cop were to live on your block and his job was dependent on the block’s satisfaction with his job, don’t you think he’d be less likely to over react and shoot your neighbor or sodomize him with a broom stick? If he were to do such a thing how long do you think the neighborhood would stand for it and allow him to keep his job, let alone keep living in the community?

You talk about a level of transparency that does not exist. In addition, community organizations in Tulsa OK in 1920, or any other times of general
idiocy/hysteria would be just as ineffectual and corrupt. Do you think a Malibu, CA or a Hillborough, CA community police force would be worried about racial profiling or harassment of minorities? Do you think a revengeful Hickfuck, OK local police officer after an event like 9/11 be worried about treatment of Arabs? What about a genuinely racist minority police officer allowing a crime against white people to occur? Who is to say all this would not be worse among community police organizations?

How many people on your street or apartment complex aside from your nextdoor neighbors do you have a genuine relationship with? Who is to stop hijacking of the system by influential people or local forces? With a smaller, more specialized police force, the buddy system would be twice as bad. Currently in large metropolitan areas, police often work in other communities.

If nothing else (but there is plenty else) a community civil defense group would be more responsive and much more easily held accountable for it’s actions and in its duty to protect the community.

But what happens when the community is a bunch of ignorant Americans who can't find Australia on a map or understand the mechanics of local politics?

Actually what you’re talking about are neither community defense organizations nor militias. You’re talking about militarily armed gangs / criminal paramilitary groups / death squads, though cnn might, in their simplicity, call them militias. They aren’t run by the community or manned by the people who live in the community and their “effectiveness” is debatable and solely based upon brutality, criminal activities, and repression (sounds like cops).

What constitutes defense? Did America defend itself against Iraq? Is a KKK attack on black men protection against black assaults on white women? Who defines fundamental issues of community defense? Is rolling around imprisoning Arabs defending American communities?

No more time but there's more I'd like to write. Late.

 

[norcaldiablo]

YOU KNOW WHAT. I KNOW THE ANSWER!!!!!
WHAT YOU DO IS MAKE COPS LIVE IN THE CITY THAT THEY PATROL IN. THAT WAY PEOPLE GET TO KNOW THE COPS AS PEOPLE AND PEOPLE GET TO KNOW THE COP BECUASE HE WILL BE PART OF THE COMMUINTY. YOU CANT HAVE A COP BE PARTOLLING IN OAKLAND , BEAT THE FUCK OUT OF A COUPLE PEOPLE, PLANT SOME EVIDENCE AND MAKE SOME FALSE ARREST AND THEN GO BACK TO HIS 2 STORY HOUSE IN WALNUT CREEK. I GUARNTE YOU IF THAT COP LIVED IN OAKLAND HE WOULD THINK TWICE ABOUT WHAT THE FUCK HE IS DOING, BECAUSE THEYRE WOULD BE CONSEQUENCES TO HIS ACTIONS. IN FACT MAKE THE COPS PATROLL THE NIEGHBOORHOOD THEY LIVE IN THAT WAY NOT ONLY IS HE ACCOUNTABLE TO THE POLICE DEPARTMENT BUT TO THE CITIZENS THAT HE SWORE TO SERVE AND PROTECT.

 

[norcaldiablo]

ALMOST ALL COPS ARE OUT OF TOWNERS OF THE CITYS THEY PARTOLL IN.

 

[WHITE DEVIL]

http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/176330-1.pdf​

9 precints across the country were studied, including Dallas, Miami-Dade, Springfield, Oregon, San Diego and more. Additional data from earlier (1995) studies were added.

Based on 1995 data reported by 110 agencies,
the police use-of-force rate was 4.19
per 10,000 responded-to calls for service,
or 0.0419 percent.

​

Based on data reported for 1996–97, 87
percent of 62,411 use-of-force incidents
involved officers using physical force. Officers
used chemical force in 7 percent of

the incidents, firearms in about 5 percent.

​

Based on available data for 1996–97, about
10 percent of 2,479 officers using force sustained
injuries, less than 1 percent serious.
About 38 percent of subjects were injured
due to police use of force, with 1.5 percent
sustaining major injuries.

More than 80 percent of calls do not involve the use of physical force, with "grabbing" categorized as physical force.​

NIJ-sponsored research at the local level
found that, in the context of the subset
of police-public contacts involving adult
custody arrests, police used physical force
(handcuffing excluded) in less than 20 percent
of 7,512 arrests studied (chapter 4).
Even in those instances, police primarily
used weaponless tactics, such as grabbing or
holding,

2.1 percent of arrests involved weapon use, with .2 percent involving firearms.

And community groups with Bob the Racist, Soccermom Cindy and Bobo the Hobo would do better?

​

 

[ColdBlooded]

I can give you the link to the polls where i found those results.

go for it if you like. It’s not really important because polls are specifically manipulated to bolster one’s own case. Just to be clear, I wasn’t totally trying to be disrespectful, just pointing out that people like to talk about hard evidence on this forum and then don’t site a source for people to see.

Of course the dissatisfied will benefit the most from changing to your defense communities. But again, biggest challenges will be persuading those that are "satisfied" to jump on board with your plan. According to my polls, they are the majority. Americans are so uptight with making changes if they do not have a passionate need to make an adjustment.

under this system it wouldn’t be a polite asking of people to change. For it to work perfectly classes would need to be eliminated and the state eliminated. But for it to work effectively classes would need to be dismantled and the state would be run by those who control the means on production. Just to get all ideological on ya.

Persuading the currently “satisfied” isn’t really necessary.

No doubt that the authorities main interest should be directed to the whole community. I was referring to the different interests that individuals have once their in power(controllers of the community). Hard to generate same interest when it involves power, promotion...etc. They are individual humans so they will have their own needs(good and bad) when in control. This will be found in any organzation, corporation, social class....etc. Greed can be found anywhere! i'd say the civil defense communties will be susceptible to their own corruption.

No individual would be in control. Rotating positions, term limits, and democracy are key. Individuals would be responsive to the community not the community responsive to an individual. It would be up to the community to design a system that would focus the group on the needs of the community and prevent the tyrany of the individual.

Hard to answer this question since i have never seen/read a real life example of a defense community. Have you ever lived in a civil defense community? I know you probably read about it, but have you experienced it in action? I do know that our police government is not perfect and is liable for corruption. Heck...we've seen it with LAPD.

I live in the U.S. and have my whole life. I’ve read at attempts at some sorts of community defense organizations and have seen some. But I’m talking about an idea that would be put into practice only after many other events and changes had taken place, which would make much of the shift from police to community defense organizations possible, obvious, and beneficial.

For example CB

You example isn’t valid. It isn’t about polls. If you want to further discuss the bias of your sources in that other thread we can do it there, but it got covered pretty well, that’s why you gave up on it isn’t it?

A classless society does not exist. Anywhere. From the most complex industrial societies to the most essentialized subsistence cultures, a classless society does not and has never existed.

Didn’t say it did or does. The point is to move as close to the elimination of class as possible if not totally.

You say they would benefit from the elimination of the state, yet the system you propose is very state-heavy.

When have you heard my proposition for a system of government? I don’t believe you have. So, where did you come up with that?

When you say the 'elmination', are you saying the elimination of that particular state or the concept of the state?

Elimination of that particular state first and then the elimination of state totally.

This sort of high-level reasoning does not exist in the minds of many, especially among everyday Americans. A majority of people would probably say yes to the second question, and a small but sizable amount would probably say yes to the first in an honest, condifdential poll - assuming a specific person in lieu of a random "neighbor". In addition, most people can not be relied upon to think in a communal sense.

currently probably not, but the elimination of the police is one drastic change among many more drastic changes that would need to happen before a community defense force for every community in the country would be possible.

How many genuinely democratic institutions do we enjoy in America today? What is the general awareness level of the average American on news, current events, law, and civic issues?

little to none on par with justice

What is the general awareness level of the average American on news, current events, law, and civic issues?

one drastic change among many more drastic changes that would need to happen before a community defense force for every community in the country would be possible.

You talk about a level of transparency that does not exist. In addition, community organizations in Tulsa OK in 1920, or any other times of general
idiocy/hysteria would be just as ineffectual and corrupt. Do you think a Malibu, CA or a Hillborough, CA community police force would be worried about racial profiling or harassment of minorities? Do you think a revengeful Hickfuck, OK local police officer after an event like 9/11 be worried about treatment of Arabs? What about a genuinely racist minority police officer allowing a crime against white people to occur? Who is to say all this would not be worse among community police organizations?

I’m talking about a community civil defense organization that doesn’t exist either.

Who is to stop hijacking of the system by influential people or local forces?

democracy, community interest in community well being, necessity

But what happens when the community is a bunch of ignorant Americans who can't find Australia on a map or understand the mechanics of local politics?

Education

 

[MaddDogg]

Im calling militias military forces that arent part of the regular army and subject to a call for service in emergency.

I am talking about militias, militarily armed gangs, gangs armed by other nations, mercenaries and police. Some are operated by the community, others are not. They are all called on by parts of a community. My point is other parts of this community feel oppression, resentment or unrepresented by militias and form rival militias.

Say Civil Defense Communities are created. What happens to rule of law across the board? Is the constitution still applicable, California law, and municipal law of a city? What becomes of international, interstate and intercity commerce regulation, crime regulation, tax collecting, etc.? What happens to the judiciary? What happens when someone from these Civil Defense Committees is stopped and arrested themselves? What measures could be put in place to keep members of Civil Defense Committees from buddying up with each other? If Civil Defense Committees are rotating positions as you said in your response to White Devil, will members of this defense have the experience and will power to fight violent crime on a daily basis? If the original goal of a Civil Defense Committee becomes skewed from corruption and some members of the community create a similar committee, which is legitimate? and who will stop two competing factions?

I guess a still don’t understand how a civil defense committee will make policing better and not stumble across the same problems of police, destroy law at federal, state and possibly city levels as well as create competing militias. Has anyone written extensively on this subject? Do you have any examples or implementation? Or sources I can read to further understand what you are talking about?

 

[Defy]

Like was said earlier, I believe there should be harsher punishments for cops....any cop who is considered to be involved in something against the law or policy should immediatly removed from their position until they are acquited of charges...I know, innocent until proven guilty, but think of it as "bail"....if police are proven guilty of any wrong doing, especially while using or hiding behind their badge, the punishment should be severe, and they should not be allowed back on the force if there are any signs of corruption or misuse of power...

there also needs to be more education and direction in our youth to think that cops aren't the bad guys as well....kids are brought up thinking fuck the police, and it seeps into their adult lives....

also, cops should live in the communities they "protect"....they will care more about what goes on in their neighborhood...

 

[norcaldiablo]

also, cops should live in the communities they "protect"....they will care more about what goes on in their neighborhood...[/QUOTE]


THATS THE MUTHAFUCKIN ANSWER TO THIS HOLE COP SHIT AND WHAT NEEDS TO CHANGE. YOU MAKE WHAT YOU SAID A POLICY THEN YOUR GOING TO SEE THIS POLICE SHIT TURN AROUND. BUT THEN LOYALTY WILL BE WITH THE PEOPLE AND NOT WITH THE GOVERMENT AND THEY KNOW THIS SO THIS SHIT AINT GONNA HAPPEN.

 

[WHITE DEVIL]

You example isn’t valid. It isn’t about polls. If you want to further discuss the bias of your sources in that other thread we can do it there, but it got covered pretty well, that’s why you gave up on it isn’t it?

That discussion would be locked in a perpetual circle. Any anti-Castro voice, no matter how small, pitiful, or inconsequential the complaint who received aid from the US was obviously a domestic terrorist, and those who didn't obviously recieved secret US funding. I waded through buckets of shit online after reading a few books on Cuba and found some decent sources, but gave up on attempting to post them.

There are many in the resistance community who do not recieve any sort of US aid and are still constantly harassed and mollified. Castro can simply slap the label of "US Insurgent" on anyone and have them instantly imprisoned for years. Reports of the people wanting more democracy, more transparency, and more openness in Cuban government are widespread, but they are all essentially either silenced or written off as Florida Republicans by our own Left.

And the funny thing about how all these "polls" are contrived, biased, and subjective is they are all from organizations we have extensively quoted from and did not question in the past. A report that places the US and Israel at the top two of journalist harassment is a godsend link that must be posted, but a mention of Cuba at number 3 is simply Rush Limbaugh propaganda, and any polls suggesting a lack of human or civil rights in Cuba are all a joke. My cousins wife is Cubana and she has a rather family of expatriots. Most of them have a personal govt. abuse story ranging from property confiscation to false charges against them or their friends.

You hear of the different ways Cubans talk when government agents aren't around, the fact that a song saying "yo tengo amigos en miami" is a 'hell of a thing to say', the 'professional' prostitutes who hold high ranking jobs and sell themselves at night, but again you have hammer-and-sickle tinted glasses and this is all US propaganda. It's a predictable equation around here. If US makes X statement, then -X in all cases.

Education

So basically we believe the same thing: that Americans must first become un-stupid. I suppose when that goal has been achieved we can debate particulars.