What differences can you spot between the two systems of justice?
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Saddam in court: 'The real criminal is Bush'
Thursday, July 1, 2004 Posted: 12:32 PM EDT (1632 GMT)
BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- Saddam Hussein stepped into an Iraqi court on Thursday and entered a new chapter in Iraq's history, hearing preliminary charges against him that included the gassing of Kurds and the invasion of Kuwait.
Appearing before a judge in a 30-minute hearing, Saddam looked thin and downcast, but became animated and at times combative as proceedings unfolded.
When he was ushered into the court, the judge asked him his name and twice he said, "I am Saddam Hussein, the president of Iraq."
He listened to seven preliminary charges outlined in his arrest warrant -- the invasion of Kuwait in 1990, suppression of the Kurdish and Shiite uprising in 1991, political killings, religious killings, the killing of a big Kurdish family, and the gassing of the Kurds in Halabja.
These are not the formal charges against Saddam, which will be worked out and detailed in an indictment over the next few months, beginning the investigative phase of the case.
The spectacle, meanwhile, was surprising for a generation of Iraqis who came to fear the sight of him.
Saddam had bags under his eyes and looked gaunt. He had a neatly trimmed beard and was thinner than he appeared in December, when he was seized in a hideout near Tikrit.
When the judge asked whether he understood his rights and could afford counsel, Saddam pointed his finger at and asked whose jurisdiction the court was under.
Saddam challenged the judge on the invasion of Kuwait, saying: "How could you say that? I did that for the Iraqi people ... how could you defend these dogs," he said, referring to the Kuwaitis.
The judge reprimanded him for his language.
Saddam said Kuwait had been trying to bring down the price of oil and turn Iraqis into paupers and Iraqi women into prostitutes.
"This is all a theater, the real criminal is Bush," Saddam said, during one outburst, referring to the U.S. president.
He also referred to the accusation of gassing Kurds at Halabja.
"I heard about that on the television reports, saying it happened during the rule of President Saddam Hussein," he told the judge.
In March 1988, Iraqi warplanes bombed the northern Iraqi town of Halabja. More than 5,000 people reportedly were killed in the attack, which used multiple chemical agents, according to international scientists.
In another exchange, the former dictator said no one had the authority to strip him of his title of president if he is being accused of committing the crimes while he was in office. "I'm elected by the people of Iraq. The occupation cannot take that right away from me," he said.
In court, each time Saddam wanted to speak, however, he was respectful, saying "please" and making a hand gesture as well to indicate that.
Saddam refused to sign court documents that said he understood what took place in court, noting that he wanted his attorney present.
Saddam did not have legal representation at the hearing.
Tim Hughes, a member of Saddam's legal team, told CNN in an interview from Jordan that he objected to the proceeding because Saddam was denied legal advice beforehand.
Hughes said the defense will be pursuing a change of venue because "any trial in Baghdad will not be fair." Under Iraqi law Saddam remains president of Iraq because he was overthrown in an illegal invasion, Hughes said. Therefore, he said, Saddam still has immunity from prosecution.
Saddam arrived for the hearing in an armored bus, as part of a convoy that included four Humvees and a military ambulance.
He wore a gray suit jacket, a starched white shirt, a belt, brown trousers, highly polished black shoes and brown socks.
He was helped into a chair by the guards and leaned his arm against the chair and started an interaction with the judge.
After the proceeding, Saddam was escorted to a new place of detention, still under U.S. military guard.
In an interview with CNN, Feisal al-Istrabadi, the principal drafter of the transitional administrative law, was asked about the availability of war crime evidence if Saddam didn't sign documents approving the actions he is suspected of spearheading.
"The crimes of the regimes were not few and were not small in scale. You are talking about mass public executions. For instance in 1969 there were mass public executions on TV of 13 men.
"These were not hidden crimes, they were in open, under the principles of command responsibility, whether you have a document signed by Saddam or not, under the principles of command, the crimes were so ubiquitous, that I think it would be virtually impossible for Saddam to argue that he did not know."
The same court procedure took place Thursday for 11 high-profile members of Saddam's regime, who also face charges. They include former deputy prime minister Tariq Aziz, who often defended the regime internationally, and Ali Hassan al-Majid, dubbed "Chemical Ali" for his alleged role in the use of chemical weapons on Iraqi civilians.
Two of Saddam's half-brothers are also in the group, along with his vice president, defense minister and presidential secretary.
None of the detainees had legal counsel in Thursday's proceedings.
Saddam and the others were transferred to Iraqi legal custody on Wednesday, but they remain in U.S. military hands.
Iraq's interim president, Sheikh Ghazi al-Yawar, told CNN earlier in the day that the trial will be fair.
"All Iraqis can listen and hear and understand that he will be tried according to the law," al-Yawar said. "There will be no political aspect to his trial."
He said the trial "means that a very dark era has been gone forever."
-- CNN Chief International Correspondent Christiane Amanpour contributed to this report.
____________________________________________________
Saddam in court: 'The real criminal is Bush'
Thursday, July 1, 2004 Posted: 12:32 PM EDT (1632 GMT)
BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- Saddam Hussein stepped into an Iraqi court on Thursday and entered a new chapter in Iraq's history, hearing preliminary charges against him that included the gassing of Kurds and the invasion of Kuwait.
Appearing before a judge in a 30-minute hearing, Saddam looked thin and downcast, but became animated and at times combative as proceedings unfolded.
When he was ushered into the court, the judge asked him his name and twice he said, "I am Saddam Hussein, the president of Iraq."
He listened to seven preliminary charges outlined in his arrest warrant -- the invasion of Kuwait in 1990, suppression of the Kurdish and Shiite uprising in 1991, political killings, religious killings, the killing of a big Kurdish family, and the gassing of the Kurds in Halabja.
These are not the formal charges against Saddam, which will be worked out and detailed in an indictment over the next few months, beginning the investigative phase of the case.
The spectacle, meanwhile, was surprising for a generation of Iraqis who came to fear the sight of him.
Saddam had bags under his eyes and looked gaunt. He had a neatly trimmed beard and was thinner than he appeared in December, when he was seized in a hideout near Tikrit.
When the judge asked whether he understood his rights and could afford counsel, Saddam pointed his finger at and asked whose jurisdiction the court was under.
Saddam challenged the judge on the invasion of Kuwait, saying: "How could you say that? I did that for the Iraqi people ... how could you defend these dogs," he said, referring to the Kuwaitis.
The judge reprimanded him for his language.
Saddam said Kuwait had been trying to bring down the price of oil and turn Iraqis into paupers and Iraqi women into prostitutes.
"This is all a theater, the real criminal is Bush," Saddam said, during one outburst, referring to the U.S. president.
He also referred to the accusation of gassing Kurds at Halabja.
"I heard about that on the television reports, saying it happened during the rule of President Saddam Hussein," he told the judge.
In March 1988, Iraqi warplanes bombed the northern Iraqi town of Halabja. More than 5,000 people reportedly were killed in the attack, which used multiple chemical agents, according to international scientists.
In another exchange, the former dictator said no one had the authority to strip him of his title of president if he is being accused of committing the crimes while he was in office. "I'm elected by the people of Iraq. The occupation cannot take that right away from me," he said.
In court, each time Saddam wanted to speak, however, he was respectful, saying "please" and making a hand gesture as well to indicate that.
Saddam refused to sign court documents that said he understood what took place in court, noting that he wanted his attorney present.
Saddam did not have legal representation at the hearing.
Tim Hughes, a member of Saddam's legal team, told CNN in an interview from Jordan that he objected to the proceeding because Saddam was denied legal advice beforehand.
Hughes said the defense will be pursuing a change of venue because "any trial in Baghdad will not be fair." Under Iraqi law Saddam remains president of Iraq because he was overthrown in an illegal invasion, Hughes said. Therefore, he said, Saddam still has immunity from prosecution.
Saddam arrived for the hearing in an armored bus, as part of a convoy that included four Humvees and a military ambulance.
He wore a gray suit jacket, a starched white shirt, a belt, brown trousers, highly polished black shoes and brown socks.
He was helped into a chair by the guards and leaned his arm against the chair and started an interaction with the judge.
After the proceeding, Saddam was escorted to a new place of detention, still under U.S. military guard.
In an interview with CNN, Feisal al-Istrabadi, the principal drafter of the transitional administrative law, was asked about the availability of war crime evidence if Saddam didn't sign documents approving the actions he is suspected of spearheading.
"The crimes of the regimes were not few and were not small in scale. You are talking about mass public executions. For instance in 1969 there were mass public executions on TV of 13 men.
"These were not hidden crimes, they were in open, under the principles of command responsibility, whether you have a document signed by Saddam or not, under the principles of command, the crimes were so ubiquitous, that I think it would be virtually impossible for Saddam to argue that he did not know."
The same court procedure took place Thursday for 11 high-profile members of Saddam's regime, who also face charges. They include former deputy prime minister Tariq Aziz, who often defended the regime internationally, and Ali Hassan al-Majid, dubbed "Chemical Ali" for his alleged role in the use of chemical weapons on Iraqi civilians.
Two of Saddam's half-brothers are also in the group, along with his vice president, defense minister and presidential secretary.
None of the detainees had legal counsel in Thursday's proceedings.
Saddam and the others were transferred to Iraqi legal custody on Wednesday, but they remain in U.S. military hands.
Iraq's interim president, Sheikh Ghazi al-Yawar, told CNN earlier in the day that the trial will be fair.
"All Iraqis can listen and hear and understand that he will be tried according to the law," al-Yawar said. "There will be no political aspect to his trial."
He said the trial "means that a very dark era has been gone forever."
-- CNN Chief International Correspondent Christiane Amanpour contributed to this report.
