Discussion on Marxism
Transcript of a conversation between His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada founder of the Hare Krishna Movement and some of his disciples.
Prabhupada: "And let me know what is the weight. Take this elephant. Weigh him." So they went to... All market, they went to find out a scale, how to weigh this. Where is the scale for weighing an elephant? So they could not do anything. They came back. "What happened?" "Sir, we could not get such a scale." "Oh, you could not weight? All right. Minister, will you kindly weigh this elephant?" "Yes, sir." "All right, take it." So within six minutes he said, "It is twenty mounds," and like that. You see? So they were standing. They were surprised: "How is that? Within some minutes he came back and he said the exact weight." So king asked that "How did you weight? Did you get some very big scale?" "No sir. It is not possible to weight the elephant in the scale. Very difficult." "Then how did you weigh?" "Yes, I took it in a boat. I got it on the boat. I saw the water mark, and I marked it, and then, after getting down the elephant, I put weight on it. So when it came to that water mark, I understood." So the king said, "Now you see the difference?" They agreed, "Yes." Buddhir yasya balam tasya nirbuddhes tu kuto balam: "One who has got intelligence, he has got strength, and one who has got no intelligence, rascal fool, what strength there is?" These people are like that, rascal fools. We don't take advice from them. We take advice from Krsna or His representative.
Syamasundara: So religion is not just a police force for keeping people in illusion.
Prabhupada: He does not know what is religion. He does not know, and he is trying to define religion. He does not know. I have defined already religion. Religion is the service spirit. That is religion. Now, real religion is the service. Everyone is engaged in giving service, but he does not know where his service will be successful. That he does not know. Therefore Krsna gives us indication that "You serve Me and your service spirit will be successful." That is religion.
Indian man: Sir, we see that Dr. Stanley Johnson... He is my friend. He said he was traveling in Moscow. One lady got in the plane, and she told him, "You look religious. You must very rich also." No. "Sir, you look religious, so you must be very rich." He said, "Why? Why do I look rich?" Because they have the idea that only rich men can think of religion.
Syamasundara: Yes. That's their whole idea.
Prabhupada: That means foolish, all set of foolish rascals, that's all. From his talking we can understand. He is the leader. So he is a big foolish man, and his followers must be all fools. That's all.
Syamasundara: Yes. He said that religion is made up by the capitalists to keep the...
Prabhupada: That means he does not know religion, what is religion, and he wants to define religion. What a foolish man he is. He does not know what is the meaning of religion. Religion means which you cannot change. That is religion. Dharmam tu saksad bhagavat-pranitam. Yes. Even up to this day, because India is standing on religion, although it is all broken, still, all over the world--I have traveled--they are adoring India.
Syamasundara: But their explanation is that because everyone is so poor in India that they rely on religion for condolence.
Prabhupada: But still, people come from other countries to learn religion here. And one Chinese writer, I have seen his book. He plainly writes that "If you want to study religion, it is India."
Syamasundara: But more people go from India there to learn science.
Indian man: No, no.
Prabhupada: No. That is another thing, material science. Material science. But when people come from West to India, they do not come here to learn material science. They come here to understand what is God, these things.
Indian man: Not only that, you know. Gandhi told the same thing. He said when Kanjulatem(?) went to London, he was told that "Your religion is ancient. Why did you not come to teach us?" He said, "Whom to teach? Your fathers and grandfathers were jumping off trees."
Prabhupada: That's it. Darwin's theory.
Indian man: He said, "Whom to come and teach? You were not there."
Prabhupada: (laughs) Very good answer. Yes, Darwin says that all monkeys. "So you are monkey. How to teach you?" It is a very good answer, yes.
Syamasundara: So he said that God does not create man, that man creates God.
Prabhupada: That is another nonsense. He is a nonsense rascal. That is being proved by his talks. Tavac ca sobhate murkho yavat kincin na bhasate. You cannot understand a rascal fool unless he talks. Now he is talking. And sooner I did not know that he is so fool, but I can understand now he is a great fool. This is the test. Tavac ca sobhate murkho yavat kincin na bhasate. Murkha, you can... A murkha can dress himself very nicely, like gentleman sitting amongst the gentlemen, but a learned man and a fool will be understood as soon as he speaks. As soon as talks like a foolish man, one can understand, "Oh, he is a rascal." And as soon as one speaks great subject matter, then one can understand, "Oh, he is learned." So by his talking, now we can understand he is a great fool.
Syamasundara: So his follower was Nikolai Lenin. Mostly he reinforced all of Marx's ideas, but he added a few touches of his own. One is that revolution is fundamental, that history...
Prabhupada: There were so many revolutions. It is not that they have made revolution. There were other revolutions, especially in Europe, the French Revolution. There were so many revolutions.
Syamasundara: He studied the revolutions, and he said that history moves in leaps and progresses toward the Communist leap. So he wants to make a leap into the dictatorship of the proletariat, and this he calls the final stage of development of history.
Prabhupada: No. We can say, and they may note it also, that after this, the Bolshevik Revolution, there will be many other revolutions, many other revolutions, because so long people will live on the mental plane there will be only revolution. That's all. Our proposition is, "Give up this mental concoction. Come to the right point. And that is spiritual platform." If one comes to that spiritual platform, that is... Just like Dhruva Maharaja said, svamin krtartho 'smi varam na yace: "No more revolution. I am completely satisfied because I have now seen You." So unless one comes to God, the revolution will go on. Rather, this is final revolution. We don't say final revolution, but... We don't expect that Krsna consciousness will be taken by everyone, but within this material world the revolution will repeat unless one comes to God consciousness.
Syamasundara: The Hare Krsna revolution.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Syamasundara: He said that...
Prabhupada: Yasmin vijnate sarvam evam vijnatam bhavanti. That is the Vedic injunction, that people are searching after knowledge, knowledge, knowledge, knowledge, knowledge, so when one understands the Absolute Truth, then he understands everything. Yasmin vijnate sarvam evam vijnatam bhavanti. And Bhagavata says, na te viduh svartha-gatim hi visnum: "They are trying to approach the objective, but they do not know the objective is Visnu." Durasaya ye bahir-artha-maninah: "They are simply trying to adjust by so many revolutions, these material things." But he has no knowledge that he is spiritual being. Unless he goes back to the spiritual world and associates with the supreme spirit, God, there is no question of happiness. Exactly, if you have taken a fish from the water, there is no question of happiness of this fish unless it is again thrown into the water. So we have come... We are part and parcel of the supreme spirit. We have come from the spiritual world with the mentality of enjoying this material world. So unless we divert, reverse ourself to that spiritual conclusion, we understand our spiritual position and go back to home, we go to back... Yad gatva na nivartante tad dhama paramam. When you come to this position, that is happiness. Otherwise you go on theorizing, but one revolution will be... That is the world. "Yielding place to new. Old order changes, yielding place to new." This is revolution. So this will go on. What he is thinking now new, it will be old after some days, and another new thing will come, will be changed. So this is the order. "Old order changes, yielding place to new." Or, in other words, "History repeats itself."
Syamasundara: He says that this is purely the nature of matter, that there are always two conflicting properties, and that this inner impulse, this inner pulsation of opposite forces, will cause history to take leaps like you just said, from one revolution to another. But the Communist revolution he calls the final revolution because it is the perfect answer.
(continued in next post)
Marxism
Transcript of a conversation between His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada founder of the Hare Krishna Movement and some of his disciples.
Prabhupada: "And let me know what is the weight. Take this elephant. Weigh him." So they went to... All market, they went to find out a scale, how to weigh this. Where is the scale for weighing an elephant? So they could not do anything. They came back. "What happened?" "Sir, we could not get such a scale." "Oh, you could not weight? All right. Minister, will you kindly weigh this elephant?" "Yes, sir." "All right, take it." So within six minutes he said, "It is twenty mounds," and like that. You see? So they were standing. They were surprised: "How is that? Within some minutes he came back and he said the exact weight." So king asked that "How did you weight? Did you get some very big scale?" "No sir. It is not possible to weight the elephant in the scale. Very difficult." "Then how did you weigh?" "Yes, I took it in a boat. I got it on the boat. I saw the water mark, and I marked it, and then, after getting down the elephant, I put weight on it. So when it came to that water mark, I understood." So the king said, "Now you see the difference?" They agreed, "Yes." Buddhir yasya balam tasya nirbuddhes tu kuto balam: "One who has got intelligence, he has got strength, and one who has got no intelligence, rascal fool, what strength there is?" These people are like that, rascal fools. We don't take advice from them. We take advice from Krsna or His representative.
Syamasundara: So religion is not just a police force for keeping people in illusion.
Prabhupada: He does not know what is religion. He does not know, and he is trying to define religion. He does not know. I have defined already religion. Religion is the service spirit. That is religion. Now, real religion is the service. Everyone is engaged in giving service, but he does not know where his service will be successful. That he does not know. Therefore Krsna gives us indication that "You serve Me and your service spirit will be successful." That is religion.
Indian man: Sir, we see that Dr. Stanley Johnson... He is my friend. He said he was traveling in Moscow. One lady got in the plane, and she told him, "You look religious. You must very rich also." No. "Sir, you look religious, so you must be very rich." He said, "Why? Why do I look rich?" Because they have the idea that only rich men can think of religion.
Syamasundara: Yes. That's their whole idea.
Prabhupada: That means foolish, all set of foolish rascals, that's all. From his talking we can understand. He is the leader. So he is a big foolish man, and his followers must be all fools. That's all.
Syamasundara: Yes. He said that religion is made up by the capitalists to keep the...
Prabhupada: That means he does not know religion, what is religion, and he wants to define religion. What a foolish man he is. He does not know what is the meaning of religion. Religion means which you cannot change. That is religion. Dharmam tu saksad bhagavat-pranitam. Yes. Even up to this day, because India is standing on religion, although it is all broken, still, all over the world--I have traveled--they are adoring India.
Syamasundara: But their explanation is that because everyone is so poor in India that they rely on religion for condolence.
Prabhupada: But still, people come from other countries to learn religion here. And one Chinese writer, I have seen his book. He plainly writes that "If you want to study religion, it is India."
Syamasundara: But more people go from India there to learn science.
Indian man: No, no.
Prabhupada: No. That is another thing, material science. Material science. But when people come from West to India, they do not come here to learn material science. They come here to understand what is God, these things.
Indian man: Not only that, you know. Gandhi told the same thing. He said when Kanjulatem(?) went to London, he was told that "Your religion is ancient. Why did you not come to teach us?" He said, "Whom to teach? Your fathers and grandfathers were jumping off trees."
Prabhupada: That's it. Darwin's theory.
Indian man: He said, "Whom to come and teach? You were not there."
Prabhupada: (laughs) Very good answer. Yes, Darwin says that all monkeys. "So you are monkey. How to teach you?" It is a very good answer, yes.
Syamasundara: So he said that God does not create man, that man creates God.
Prabhupada: That is another nonsense. He is a nonsense rascal. That is being proved by his talks. Tavac ca sobhate murkho yavat kincin na bhasate. You cannot understand a rascal fool unless he talks. Now he is talking. And sooner I did not know that he is so fool, but I can understand now he is a great fool. This is the test. Tavac ca sobhate murkho yavat kincin na bhasate. Murkha, you can... A murkha can dress himself very nicely, like gentleman sitting amongst the gentlemen, but a learned man and a fool will be understood as soon as he speaks. As soon as talks like a foolish man, one can understand, "Oh, he is a rascal." And as soon as one speaks great subject matter, then one can understand, "Oh, he is learned." So by his talking, now we can understand he is a great fool.
Syamasundara: So his follower was Nikolai Lenin. Mostly he reinforced all of Marx's ideas, but he added a few touches of his own. One is that revolution is fundamental, that history...
Prabhupada: There were so many revolutions. It is not that they have made revolution. There were other revolutions, especially in Europe, the French Revolution. There were so many revolutions.
Syamasundara: He studied the revolutions, and he said that history moves in leaps and progresses toward the Communist leap. So he wants to make a leap into the dictatorship of the proletariat, and this he calls the final stage of development of history.
Prabhupada: No. We can say, and they may note it also, that after this, the Bolshevik Revolution, there will be many other revolutions, many other revolutions, because so long people will live on the mental plane there will be only revolution. That's all. Our proposition is, "Give up this mental concoction. Come to the right point. And that is spiritual platform." If one comes to that spiritual platform, that is... Just like Dhruva Maharaja said, svamin krtartho 'smi varam na yace: "No more revolution. I am completely satisfied because I have now seen You." So unless one comes to God, the revolution will go on. Rather, this is final revolution. We don't say final revolution, but... We don't expect that Krsna consciousness will be taken by everyone, but within this material world the revolution will repeat unless one comes to God consciousness.
Syamasundara: The Hare Krsna revolution.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Syamasundara: He said that...
Prabhupada: Yasmin vijnate sarvam evam vijnatam bhavanti. That is the Vedic injunction, that people are searching after knowledge, knowledge, knowledge, knowledge, knowledge, so when one understands the Absolute Truth, then he understands everything. Yasmin vijnate sarvam evam vijnatam bhavanti. And Bhagavata says, na te viduh svartha-gatim hi visnum: "They are trying to approach the objective, but they do not know the objective is Visnu." Durasaya ye bahir-artha-maninah: "They are simply trying to adjust by so many revolutions, these material things." But he has no knowledge that he is spiritual being. Unless he goes back to the spiritual world and associates with the supreme spirit, God, there is no question of happiness. Exactly, if you have taken a fish from the water, there is no question of happiness of this fish unless it is again thrown into the water. So we have come... We are part and parcel of the supreme spirit. We have come from the spiritual world with the mentality of enjoying this material world. So unless we divert, reverse ourself to that spiritual conclusion, we understand our spiritual position and go back to home, we go to back... Yad gatva na nivartante tad dhama paramam. When you come to this position, that is happiness. Otherwise you go on theorizing, but one revolution will be... That is the world. "Yielding place to new. Old order changes, yielding place to new." This is revolution. So this will go on. What he is thinking now new, it will be old after some days, and another new thing will come, will be changed. So this is the order. "Old order changes, yielding place to new." Or, in other words, "History repeats itself."
Syamasundara: He says that this is purely the nature of matter, that there are always two conflicting properties, and that this inner impulse, this inner pulsation of opposite forces, will cause history to take leaps like you just said, from one revolution to another. But the Communist revolution he calls the final revolution because it is the perfect answer.
(continued in next post)