Something to think about.
- Thread starter NovaFire
- Start date
That's why I was emphasizing that right now we're successful. I don't think it's fair for us to say we're unsuccessful because we're on our way to destruction since we cannot truly predict where we are going. I think we can only judge what has happened thus far and from that standpoint we're still a flourishing species.
That's not to say we're not going to be completely fucked in the future, I think that's more than possible. Also, when I said we can deal with overpopulation, etc., I was talking about up to this point. There may be lots of death, disease, and whatnot across the world, but all of that has not stopped us from continuing on as a species, and perhaps when we get to a more critical point than we are now, we have some new innovation that helps us along a little further instead of perishing due to overpopulation. Maybe.
That's not to say we're not going to be completely fucked in the future, I think that's more than possible. Also, when I said we can deal with overpopulation, etc., I was talking about up to this point. There may be lots of death, disease, and whatnot across the world, but all of that has not stopped us from continuing on as a species, and perhaps when we get to a more critical point than we are now, we have some new innovation that helps us along a little further instead of perishing due to overpopulation. Maybe.
We havent dealt with overpopulation or lack of food supplies.
Those are still massive problems. Maybe where we live we dont have food supply trouble, but that is only one area of the world.
And, how have we dealt with overpopulation? The only way to deal with that is to lower the population, or, in other words, kill people off.
Or stop helping sick people so they die off naturally.
Those are still massive problems. Maybe where we live we dont have food supply trouble, but that is only one area of the world.
And, how have we dealt with overpopulation? The only way to deal with that is to lower the population, or, in other words, kill people off.
Or stop helping sick people so they die off naturally.
I'm talking in terms of evolution and about the human species as a whole. In evolution, the purpose of a population, species, etc. is to survive long enough to reproduce. That's about it and we have accomplished that. We've BEEN overpopulated but we continue to expand. Why? Because we've dealt with it in some way or another.
Ok, I agree with you on some of those points. But, dont you think the point of evolution is not to survive long enough to reproduce, but to survive long enough to evolve?
That is just my opinion though.
And, I really dont think we have dealt with it in any real way, just putting it in the back of our minds isnt dealing with it. China is dealing with by limiting the number of children, though they do it in a sexist way.
To my knowledge, the rest of the world is not dealing with it, just ignoring it.
Not trying to flame with you or anything homie, this is a really good discussion, I enjoy hearing your points.
That is just my opinion though.
And, I really dont think we have dealt with it in any real way, just putting it in the back of our minds isnt dealing with it. China is dealing with by limiting the number of children, though they do it in a sexist way.
To my knowledge, the rest of the world is not dealing with it, just ignoring it.
Not trying to flame with you or anything homie, this is a really good discussion, I enjoy hearing your points.
No, but let me rephrase what I said. The purpose of LIFE is to reproduce. The "purpose" of evolution is to allow populations to adapt to their surrounding conditions.
What I'm talking about involves only what I have said above. I am not including morals, ethics, or anything else like that. You're talking about something completely different IMO.
On the other hand, I understand it is rather naive to limit discussion about humans to only evolution and its principles, but I think it's important to at least understand things from that perspective.
What I'm talking about involves only what I have said above. I am not including morals, ethics, or anything else like that. You're talking about something completely different IMO.
On the other hand, I understand it is rather naive to limit discussion about humans to only evolution and its principles, but I think it's important to at least understand things from that perspective.
^^^why is it so important to establish the fact that humans are nothing more than intelligent animals? The brain is a powerful thing, if we believe we can't do something then we can'nt, but on the other hand if we believe in ourselves we can perform almost super natural feats. Now could it be that, since we believe ourselves to be nothing more than animals, we behave and act in such a way, creating a SELF fulfilling prophecy?
On the contraire, I believe it's when we put ourselves above animals that we fall into so many pitfalls. Our superior intelligence makes us unique and gives us the ability to (usually) override our innate animalistic desires, but we are all still animals. Our brains respond much the same as other species when it comes to eating, copulating, surviving - fear and desire are not uniquely human.
By taking an extreme anthropocentric view, that's when the world starts to fall apart. Instead of seeing ourselves as part of nature, we suddenly think we're Gods and don't need to abide by natures rules, that we're above all that. If we think that we're separate from nature, then we lose respect for mother nature and rampantly pollute the earth. If we think that we're above all other animals, then we lose respect for all life that is not human and treat it with ignorance and contempt.
Only by understanding and ACCEPTING the fact that we're merely intelligent animals can we adapt to the real world - the world that has existed for billions of years, instead of our own little steel and concrete islands. If we keep running around with an air of superiority, we won't last long.
By taking an extreme anthropocentric view, that's when the world starts to fall apart. Instead of seeing ourselves as part of nature, we suddenly think we're Gods and don't need to abide by natures rules, that we're above all that. If we think that we're separate from nature, then we lose respect for mother nature and rampantly pollute the earth. If we think that we're above all other animals, then we lose respect for all life that is not human and treat it with ignorance and contempt.
Only by understanding and ACCEPTING the fact that we're merely intelligent animals can we adapt to the real world - the world that has existed for billions of years, instead of our own little steel and concrete islands. If we keep running around with an air of superiority, we won't last long.
We have a fair idea of where we are going. Take global climate change for example: we have piles of data suggesting that humans are causing the global temperature to increase and that such increases will have devastating effects on the environment, other species, and ourselves. Yet we're still polluting like crazy - why? Because instead of seeing humanity as inextricably linked to the greater world, we're caught up in our own little bubble of politics and economics - intangiable ideas which are overruling reality. We can clearly see disaster approaching and yet are doing nothing.
Besides, every species in existence would have to be considered successful based on the fact that they still exist. Over millions of years these animals have evolved to adapt perfectly with the ecological niche in which they inhabit, successfully outcompeting other challenging species. We can't claim humans to be superior based on survivability.
Besides, every species in existence would have to be considered successful based on the fact that they still exist. Over millions of years these animals have evolved to adapt perfectly with the ecological niche in which they inhabit, successfully outcompeting other challenging species. We can't claim humans to be superior based on survivability.
thats exactly it, we have the ability to override our innate animalistic nature, but when it comes down to it, we seldom do. I agree with you when you say that we shouldnt put ourselves above nature, because we are all part of it.
But i also believe that because we have the ability to reflect on our past, that this gives us a whole new set of emotions, that animals do not posses. For example emotions of shame and dissappointment. No other animal can fill itself with so much shame that it would rather chose to commit suicide than live. Why is that? that goes against the instict to survive.
But i also believe that because we have the ability to reflect on our past, that this gives us a whole new set of emotions, that animals do not posses. For example emotions of shame and dissappointment. No other animal can fill itself with so much shame that it would rather chose to commit suicide than live. Why is that? that goes against the instict to survive.
^^^there have been incidences where animals appear to kill themselves, usually by starving themselves after someone/something close to them dies or dissapears (i dont think many of them comprehend the outcome of jumping off of a cliff or walking in front of a car or cutting their wrists and laying in a bath tub).
to your other point about animals not killing for sport, this is absolutely not true. ive read about tigers doing this, and not for food, but just going on killing sprees, lions kill the existing cubs after they take over, etc, but i will look more into it.
i think people have romanticized "animals" for various reasons, but have romanticized them nonetheless. murder, rape, suicide, no matter how much you want to pin them as human conditions are all observable in "nature".
i see your point that we seem to do things below what you would expect our intelligence to allow, but our brains are products of evolution too and there is still some primal shit in there, and there are people who want power and money and all that, mix that in with "society" and constant oppression and manipulation by more powerful people and its a little clearer,
i mean if you made a chimp wear a little suit and go to work everyday to a job he hated so he could take care of his whiny ass chimp babies and maybe his chimp wife aint lookin as good as when they first got married, her cooking sucks lately, mother in law chimp always tellin him what a piece of shit he was, he probably would cap himself, or atleast smoke to smooth out (oh yeah, there are plenty of monkeys in captivity addicted to cigarettes)
to your other point about animals not killing for sport, this is absolutely not true. ive read about tigers doing this, and not for food, but just going on killing sprees, lions kill the existing cubs after they take over, etc, but i will look more into it.
i think people have romanticized "animals" for various reasons, but have romanticized them nonetheless. murder, rape, suicide, no matter how much you want to pin them as human conditions are all observable in "nature".
i see your point that we seem to do things below what you would expect our intelligence to allow, but our brains are products of evolution too and there is still some primal shit in there, and there are people who want power and money and all that, mix that in with "society" and constant oppression and manipulation by more powerful people and its a little clearer,
i mean if you made a chimp wear a little suit and go to work everyday to a job he hated so he could take care of his whiny ass chimp babies and maybe his chimp wife aint lookin as good as when they first got married, her cooking sucks lately, mother in law chimp always tellin him what a piece of shit he was, he probably would cap himself, or atleast smoke to smooth out (oh yeah, there are plenty of monkeys in captivity addicted to cigarettes)
Yeah it might happen once in a while but not on a consistent basis or on the same scale that humans do all this things. plus if they could comprehend the outcome, would they still do it like we do?
i dont know about the tigers, but i do know that lions kill existing cubs that are from rival alpha males. That though, seems logical since not to many men would want to take over the responsibility of other dudes either.
Some examples please
thats what i mean, society is constantly attempting to opress and manipulate, what better way then to labels us animals to justify atrocities. no doubt we have innate primal shit, but we are also conscious of it, and that gives us a whole range of different response-abilities, why always resort to destructive ones? can it be conditioning?
Lol welcome to the rat race aka capitalism. Enviroments that encourage competition, sounds like conditioning to me.
i dont know about the tigers, but i do know that lions kill existing cubs that are from rival alpha males. That though, seems logical since not to many men would want to take over the responsibility of other dudes either.
Some examples please
thats what i mean, society is constantly attempting to opress and manipulate, what better way then to labels us animals to justify atrocities. no doubt we have innate primal shit, but we are also conscious of it, and that gives us a whole range of different response-abilities, why always resort to destructive ones? can it be conditioning?
Lol welcome to the rat race aka capitalism. Enviroments that encourage competition, sounds like conditioning to me.
We are powerful because we have the ability to control our emotions/instincts...
to pass on knowledge thru the ages...History is where our power lies.
its a short cut through time and lessons learned.
We are not powerful because we have not found our nitch and will one day outgrow our planet. We are not powerful because we are not all powerful enough to control and understand nature.
to pass on knowledge thru the ages...History is where our power lies.
its a short cut through time and lessons learned.
We are not powerful because we have not found our nitch and will one day outgrow our planet. We are not powerful because we are not all powerful enough to control and understand nature.